Orange is The New Black: Season 2, Episodes 4 & 5

Posted on June 14, 2014

Orange-Is-The-New-Black-Season-2-Episodes-4-5-6-Tom-Lorenzo-Site-TLOYael Stone in Netflix’s “Orange Is The New Black”


Episode 4: “A Whole Other Hole”

“I’m going to get poison pumped into my veins. What’s a little mouse shit in my lungs?” 

With this episode, Orange is the New Black really digs into its second season; showing us the ways in which it’s different from season one and the ways in which it hasn’t lost its touch at all.

If we tried really hard to come up with something critical to say about the show as a whole, it’s that it sometimes veers a little close to beatifying its characters, as if every single inmate at Litchfield was either the victim of someone else’s evil or just a person who made a bad decision or wrong turn somewhere. It’s a good thing for the show to pull back a little from the broadness that defines its style and remind us that prison is also – and many would say “mainly” – a place to send people who are dangerous and sometimes even psychotic. There’s no better way to shock us into remembering this fact than by using a character like Lorna to illustrate it. Yes, it was one of those classic “Everything you THOUGHT you knew is a lie!” twists, but it was executed so perfectly that it made us wish we were watching a network or cable show in real time, just so we could get on twitter and gasp along with everyone else.

We thought it was pretty much a given that Christopher was not going to marry Lorna and assumed it was because he’d long since moved on. Anyone watching the show could see that her constant wedding planning was a total pipe dream and that she was just deluding herself in order to get through her sentence. But to find out that Lorna’s delusions are much stronger and go much further back than prison? To find out the extent to which she harrassed and threatened Christopher and his real fiancee, to the point of it being legitimately scary? That was a genuine “Whoa” moment. And yet, our hearts still break for her, even after the reveal that she planted a bomb under Christopher’s car. That’s a testament to the writing and to Yael Stone’s fragile, high-strung performance. The scene in Christopher’s house went from tense to full on batshit crazy slowly, letting you come to terms with the idea that Lorna is quite a different person than you thought. By the time she’s naked in the tub with a wedding veil on, you’ve got your face in your hands, begging her to get out of there; pleading with her not to get caught, even as you recognize that what she’s doing is very, very wrong. It was some of the best directing and acting the show has ever put together, making for one of the most talked-about sequences of the second season. A sharp, poignant turn that reminded us just when we needed the reminder of how much this show can be a knife to your heart.

In other Litch news:

Brook Soso may just outdo season 1 Piper for being both hilariously un-self-aware and annoying, getting some of the best lines of the episode. “Is she Chinese? I don’t want to presume. She could be Malay.” “Everyone is in such a bad mood!” Thankfully, Nikki, who declared herself a “bean-flicking Mother Teresa,” knew exactly what to do to get Brook to shut up for a second.

Vee is getting more emboldened (and thus more dangerous) by the minute, playing the black girls against each other and casting her own power play as some sort of civil rights triumph. Cindy, Taystee, Janae and Poussey are right to laugh her off when she talks about being a powerful black woman in a place like Litchfield, but Vee’s no joke. She’s a sociopath who knows how to zero in on a person’s most painful weakness and then jam her finger into it over and over again until they’re howling in pain and willing to do as told. We worry about Poussey going up against her. She doesn’t seem to understand yet just how much of a hold Vee has on Taystee. Interesting costume design to note (in a show that doesn’t have much of a chance to tell story through costuming or makeup): Taystee’s braiding her hair again, just like she did when she was under Vee’s influence in the outside world. This goes hand in hand with Suzanne’s new Vee-approved hairstyle. There’s some subtle brilliance in the idea of using the hair of the black female characters to signal the notable changes in each of those characters. We’re keeping an eye on Cindy’s afro puffs.

And just to prove how committed the show is to its central theme that every person has a story to tell, it looks like we’re going to learn a lot more about Rosa, who came off as nothing more than a throwaway character last season. That moment when Morello cheerily tells her to buckle up and she looks down at the seatbelt with resignation was sadly beautiful and perfectly human. Why bother?

Piper’s trying to put her Litchfield life back together, but we’re just  happy to see her side-lined from the main action. We’re hoping that continues for a while. What’s going on with Vee and her posse is far more interesting than anything else this season. It would be a shame – and it would feel like a betrayal somehow – if Piper somehow winds up at the center of this one. Especially since it keeps threatening to get seriously ugly. “The reign of whitey is over,” says Nikki, about the Latinas getting the best seats at movie night. Vee’s doing her best to stir up racial resentment and we’re starting to get scared that the season will end with a riot.

Funniest moment of the season so far: O’Neill’s wide-eyed look at the revelation of the clitoral hood. Absolutely hilarious – and done without a word said. In fact, Sophia’s whole coochie lesson was comedy gold, with “I’ve seen some funky punani in my day,” going down as one of the all-time great bits of dialogue for this show.

Oh, and Red found a pipeline. Literally. That was probably the one bit of this episode we found just a little too convenient. She walks into an unused shed, sees a mouse, and in seconds, discovers a major security breach. Fine. Go with that, but it’s a little silly.

Outside Litchfield, Larry and Polly are about to have an OH GOD WHO THE HELL CARES.


Episode 5: “Low Self Esteem City”

“Showers will be limited to 30 seconds?’ Man I can’t even wash my twat in that time!”

Litchfield is so corrupt and broken that shit is literally bubbling up from the drains. It may not be the most elegant metaphor in the world, but it’s definitely an effective one.

And because pretty much everything that happens at the Litch now seems to have a racial component to it,  The “Spanish” girls invade the B Dorm bathroom, causing a fight to break out between Cindy and Flaca and a nose-flaring, eye-burning stare-off between Gloria and Vee. “My girls are not inclined to offer special privileges. “Your girls?” asks Gloria. “When did that happen?” GOOD QUESTION, GLORIA. Don’t turn your back, girl.

Gloria’s always been one of our favorite characters for being a combination of badass and smart. Not smart in the Vee or Red sense, where you come into prison and use your intelligence to secure a position of power. No, she’s smarter even than that: she stays the hell out of things – even as she herself enjoys quite a bit of power and privilege as the head of the kitchen. Unlike Red, she never really uses that position to secure anything but a few perks here and there. In flashback, we find out (as we so often do with these flashbacks), that there’s another side to the story. She may be strong and loaded with common sense now, but there was a time when she was a victim and making some highly questionable choices in her life. We can’t say anything about her backstory was shocking, but it was fun to see her rocking the shit out of some skin-tight acid-washed jeans. The last minute reveal that her aunt’s Santeria may actually work felt a little off-model, though. Like something from an episode of Lost.

This was the “everyone is in their own prison” episode, which is one of the central themes of the show. Whether you wear the prison drabs or you wear a CO’s uniform, you’re stuck in Litchfield, railing against your restraints, and generally unhappy over it. Sometimes we think the show oversells this idea; especially with characters like Healey and Caputo. You can show us a million scenes of Healey’s wife being horrible to him and you’re never really going to convince us that it’s somehow akin to … we don’t know, Suzanne’s life. Or Daya’s. And every time we watch Caputo act like a lovestruck teenager around Fischer, we can’t help but roll our eyes. It’s not that we don’t care about the guards and employees of the Litch; it’s just that the show has not managed to make us feel sorry for them – and it keeps trying to.

But Healey probably needs the character rehabilitiation, since his actions at the end of last season tipped him over the line from “frustrated man” to “villain.” What’s interesting about him is that he clearly has no motivations or thought of his own. He simply adopts whatever someone else is feeding him. He doesn’t enact, he reacts – to everything. So if his wife is a bitch to him, he’ll take it out on an inmate. If Caputo suddenly becomes his hero for being in a band (giving you some idea of how emotionally immature Healey must be) and starts talking about their duty to keep the inmates safe and clean, then by God,  he is going to do just that. And every time he reacts this way, adopting someone else’s point of view or making sudden left turns out of nowhere because his wife emasculated him, he keeps looking up expectantly, waiting for applause and a pat on the head. And then storming off angrily when he doesn’t get it. No, we don’t feel sorry for Healey in any significant way, but he is one of the more finely drawn characters on the show. And he’s the best way of reminding the viewer how much the inmates are at the mercy of other people’s bad moods or frustrations.

As for Caputo, we appreciate that he’s both an asshole and someone who genuinely cares about his responsibilities to the inmates, but other than that, we don’t much care. His mooning over Fischer comes off silly and his sparring with Figueroa is one of the rare times the show actually feels like a stereotypical TV show. She’s WAY too broad a character for this ensemble (a problem we have with Pornstache as well) and their banter always sounds scripted. Just fuck and get it over with, you two.

In Piper news, she gets a visit from her mother and brother (but not her father), which helps remind us just how fucked up her family is. Then she calls Larry. We are sitting on mountains of don’t-give-a-shit.

And finally, it looks like Red and Vee are going to go to war this season. Gloria was pretty upset to find out from Red that Vee played her like a fiddle (in a scene that should land Lorraine Toussaint an Emmy nod, just for the sheer creepiness displayed in that little smile), but we’re convinced she’s smart enough to stay out of it from now on. “This shit’s dangerous,” she says, as she blows out her tampon string-and-crayon Santeria candle. Smart lady.





[Photo Credit: Jessica Miglio for Netflix]

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  • ShaoLinKitten

    There just aren’t enough Emmys for this show. It’s being submitted in the Comedy category, if you can believe it. Lorraine Toussaint dominates this season, and I’m glad her storyline is trumping Piper’s. Piper’s family is so boring, and I am done as hell with Polly and Larry. Everything was a bit too cozy in Litchfield last season, and it kind of seemed like summer camp, with shitty food and abusive counselors. The racial tensions and contraband trade upped the conflict significantly, made the whole thing feel more real, and it had me on the edge of my seat.

    Morello! So shocking and poignant. My question is, why is she in federal prison? Mail fraud would land you there, but stalking wouldn’t. I guess I shouldn’t be thinking about that too deeply.

    • schadenfreudelicious

      I wondered the same about Morello, has to be mail/credit card fraud, she appeared to have quite the operation going there.

    • lchopalong

      Stalking wouldn’t, but attempted murder via a bomb could.

      • Crossing state lines while stalking makes it federal. A fellow attorney friend and I were puzzling it out and discovered there are federal stalking laws.

        • I love the “a fellow attorney friend and I” – glad to see you are enjoying your career!

    • MaryMcClelland

      I think it is mail fraud because last season Nikki mentioned something about her being in there for that.

      • ShaoLinKitten

        I remember that, but thought maybe she was lying about that because she didn’t want to admit the stuff about Christopher. But maybe they got her on both?

        • P M

          Her level of denial is too deep for her to admit to herself that she’s done wrong. After all, Christopher said he went on *one* date. She then spun out a whole relationship from that.

    • Susan Velazquez

      It seems to be that stalking is what got her in Litchfield, as we saw her stand trial for it. Ichopalong may be right that her homemade bomb could have been viewed as attempted murder. That being said, Boo and Nicky did crack jokes about her scams in season 1 so it must be common knowledge what she did. Maybe she was sent in for two separate charges?

      • ShaoLinKitten

        Do people do federal time for attempted murder that isn’t part of drug trafficking, bank robbery, or a RICO case? I guess I thought stuff like that would land you in state prison. Mail fraud is a crime that would definitely get her federal prison. Maybe I’m overthinking this.

        • Logo Girl

          I think the bomb may be considered terrorism. It definitely would be state if she tried to shoot them. For the record, I don’t think you are overthinking it 🙂

        • Monabel

          Sometimes state criminal justice systems are happy to let people do Federal time, even with major state crimes pending, because of budgets/prison overcrowding.

        • Susan Velazquez

          I honestly don’t know how Litchfield works. It’s a minimum security federal prison which explains why a lot of inmates have drug related charges but I’m confused how people like Sister Ingalls and Brooke Soso are there when they are political protesters. I don’t know if they assaulted any policy officers or committed any other felonies…Hmm, this is a headscratcher.

          • ShaoLinKitten

            Sister Ingalls was a repeat offender. I recall her saying she’d been arrested X number of times, so this time it was going to be a big deal. She trespassed in and defaced a military base, so that would be federal time in minimum security. As for Brook, not sure exactly what she did, but it must have been pretty egregious, or a chronic offender situation like Sister. Maybe we’ll get a Brook backstory next season.

            I still want to know what Poussey and Red did to get sent up. Red has been in for 20 years, right?

          • Susan Velazquez

            Red was helping the Russian mob come up with fronts for their businesses so I assume her ties to the Mafia got her sent away. How her husband evaded arrest, I’m not sure but **SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILERS AHEAD** a later episode reveals that their family has fallen out of favor with the Mob so whatever happened there, it must have gone sour. Poussey is still undetermined because in her flashback episode, she was about to threaten an army officer but her father stopped her so that couldn’t be what got her sent to jail. END SPOILERS.

          • Siege

            Wasn’t Red’s backstory covered in the first season? She and her husband got stuck as a front for the Russian mob? I assumed they eventually got discovered hiding bodies or something. Or did I misinterpret that?

    • Logo Girl

      Stalking is tried as a state crime generally, and it is very, very hard to get prosecuted for stealing a closetful of shoes through mail fraud. I think the bomb is what placed her in federal prison, but it is possible that she has mulitiple charges being served simultaneously from both state and federal, perhaps her incarceration for the bomb allowed her to be prosecuted for other charges. Stalking may be tried as a federal crime if state lines are crossed. It is unclear if she or Chrisopher is based in NJ, NY or MA.

      • ShaoLinKitten

        I think Christopher is in the Albany area, right? Isn’t that where the hospital was? I wonder how Lorna learned how to build a bomb. She doesn’t seem like the type.

        • Logo Girl

          He is, though Lorna has a weird Boston-Brooklyn accent and she was talking about going to New Jersey.

          • ShaoLinKitten

            Yeah, her accent is really weird. I haven’t figured out if it’s supposed to be Jersey or Boston. Did we ever get any hints about that? Or it is just an actorly affectation?

          • Glammie

            I’m thinking Jersey because she and her sister made a comment about being dressed for the Jersey shore. Bostonians tend to visit Cape Cod and such instead of going all the way to Jersey.

          • Logo Girl

            I think Stone made a choice to make it a bit cryptic.

          • ShaoLinKitten

            She also seems to have a lisp on top of the accent. It adds to her cutesy, innocent persona. Yael Stone is really amazing. Really, the entire cast is amazing. Not a weak link in the whole thing, IMO.

          • demidaemon

            I agree. If I were on the Emmy committee (unfortunately, I am not! :(), I would be hard pressed on who to nominate for the awards.

          • I wonder what it would take to get a bitter kitten on the Emmy committee. I think we are underrepresented.

          • butterflysunita

            Is there even one bitter kitten on the Emmy committee? Deplorable oversight.

          • demidaemon

            Well, a few of us have some experience in movies/TV, so they must be qualified. 😉

          • I was seriously blown away when I watched Uzo Aduba’s audition tape, where she read for all the main characters. WOW. I mean, I always knew Suzanne was just a character, but I still felt shocked to see her actress…not be her.

          • P M

            I wish they’d let her improvise a little more with her character, because she seems to be able to take a basic sketch of a character and run with it. Her version of Nicky was HILARIOUS .’There’s a gun in my pocket, and it’s called a VAGINA’! 😀

          • butterflysunita

            Yael Stone is Australian so I think that’s why sometimes her accent is ambiguous. I think she does an amazing job at at her accent and speech patterns–I would never have guessed she was Australian.

          • Heather

            Yael Stone is a good actress, but the accent still really grates on me. To me, she sounds like a non-American (in this case, Australian) trying to do New Jersey but not getting it quite right.

          • MilkyTheCow

            I read an interview with the actress recently, and the Boston/Jersey mix is intentional : Morello is supposed to have grown up in Boston, but moved to New Jersey in her teens. Yael Stone apparently wandered around Boston recording people’s accents for reference, and found one girl in particular who largely inspired Lorna.

          • Kristy Sheldon

            In real life she is from England or Australia or something, or so I read on the internet. Who knows if that was true?

          • julnyes

            It sounds like a Jersey accent done by someone who only knows New Jersey from 1940 newsreels. The actress is Australian, so that may play into the oddness of the accent.

        • Logo Girl

          Christopher also said in court he was forced to move multiple times. He may have changed states in that.

        • I can totally see her googling DIY bomb ideas.

          • ShaoLinKitten

            Maybe she purchased bomb making items through the mail. Now that would get her federal time for sure.

      • She followed Christopher and his fiancee to Atlantic City. That would probably qualify for the federal stalking. I puzzled it out with a fellow attorney friend.

        • Logo Girl

          Thanks, yeah, I figured that could be it, thanks!

      • I wondered about that too. But did anyone catch that she was sitting in the courtroom dressed in all manner of designer finery? If they were gonna snatch her for mail fraud, I’d think they’d have already done that, and confiscated all her ill gotten goods as evidence. But, that could have come later. Who knows. Fine performance by Yael Stone, among others. She really started shining through with the phone call from her sister saying Christopher was getting married. Unless she was faking that too. Her sister was bound to know the truth about Christopher since there was that public court trial. I cant believe the sister didnt know the truth about the nature and depth of the real relationship.

    • I assumed it was THE BOMB!!!!

    • PastryGoddess

      Also, Federal sentences are typically served before state time. For example, I have an uncle in prison. He was indicted for both state and federal crimes. He served several years in federal prison and then was transferred into state prison. Some people serve their state and federal time concurrently. Others serve it consecutively

      • ShaoLinKitten

        I did not know that. It’s surprisingly hard to get info like that on the internet. It seems like many of the crimes on the federal list are duplicated on the state list, so I wonder how it’s decided who gets sent where.

        • Logo Girl

          Try adding in crimes on a county level and it gets really fun! You might theoretically get transferred to the local jail immediately upon getting out of prison for multiple violations of a protective order while in prison. If they had caught her with her breaking into Christopher’s house, not only would her federal term likely be extended but she would have likely gone to another local trial in Albany, and they probably would determine at that point not to let her serve it concurrently. Morello is on one of the toughest paths of all, because if she can’t stop obsessing she will keep in an endless cycle of charges.

      • Logo Girl

        Well put.

  • schadenfreudelicious

    Miss Rosa was the icing on the cake of the entire season, cant wait for the final episode discussion 🙂

    • Jeremiah Capacillo

      That final scene of the season brought tears to my eyes, and I don’t even know why.

  • Anita Karenin

    What is going on when they give the inmates “shots” when they get out of line?

    • Sarah

      It’s like a demerit. Get enough of them, you get sent to SHU.

      • Anita Karenin

        I thought it was something more literal because they were talking about rationing them. Or is this a reference to it costing more to house them in SHU?

        • Sarah

          I thought the rationing statement was a reference to not being overly punitive for the sake of morale, maybe. A shot is a violation, and they are assigned various numbers depending on the severity of the infraction. For instance, 300 series shots are minor, like showing up for work late and being out of bounds, and 100 series shots are things like murdering another inmate. So the code goes on your inmate record, to record instances of bad behavior.

        • ShaoLinKitten

          It wasn’t rationing, it was a quota. Every CO had to give out a certain number of shots, which led to lots of arbitrary shots being doled out.

  • jahphotogal

    I can’t comment too much because I’ve watched it all and would surely say something spoiler-y. Just LOVED this season – every show I’ve ever loved has a few sour notes and missteps but this one has so few, and so much that’s just perfectly spot-on fabulous. I realized a couple of days ago, after getting to the end of the season, that I’d skipped this one somehow so went back and watched it yesterday – loved it even more out of sequence because it filled in gaps and I’d been really craving some Gloria backstory. I think they get the balance of serious, comic, silly, and sentimental/sad just right. I’d never heard of Jenji Kohan before six months ago (I came late to this party) but she’s my hero now. The parts most people can’t stand (Larry/Polly, Caputo/whatsername) are necessary to balance out the other stories – you need a change of pace.

    • I don’t think I would have any trouble with the series remaining entirely in the jail next season with the exception of back stories and seeing the staff outside of the jail. I find it a bit jarring to get thrown out of the story to Polly and Larry who are so exterior to the plot now. It would make better sense story wise. Polly and Larry have their happy ending, they can ride off into the sunset, and we can forget they ever existed THANK YOU DEITIES! 🙂

      I mentioned in my other comment that there is a remake of Prisoner Cell Block H being shown on Aussie pay tv at the moment called Wentworth and they do remain in the jail 95% of the time in the second season where the first season was more like the first season of OITNB with some time being spent on characters not in jail but related to those who were in jail. I think there have been episodes entirely within the jail which seem to flow a bit better.. 🙂

    • demidaemon

      I agree. And I actually like Caputo as a character, as their is something sad but ture in watching an older man trying to get a younger woman’s attention but always failing.

  • ‘Becca’lise Deveaux

    OMG, the Morello-stalker reveal was SO gaspworthy, it’s what my coworkers and I were talking about the most after we all marathoned the entire season over the weekend.

    • rhymeswithorange

      I also loved how Morello built her own private world, as shown in the picture of her bedroom above. When she comes home, her sister says, “How many times are you going to see Twilight?” Her fantasies offered her refuge from her messy home life- they just went a bit too far. So I just loved how her story was shown more sympathetically until the reveal.

  • PLEASE tell me I am not the only one who cannot stand the song. And when you binge watch that darn thing gets stuck in your head. I would rather chew glass than listen to it one more time. 🙁

    With that said, I also kind of like the song. It reminds me a bit of The Cranberries. Who knew I felt two ways about something this simple?

    Well of course I binge watched the whole thing, will not spoil anything for those who haven’t seen the others yet.

    I do want to say that while last season Red was a stand out character to me, this season has made me fall deeply in love with her as a character for so many reasons. And then to go on the youtube and find out the actress is not Russian at all? BLEW MY MIND. I am now a huge Kate Mulgrew fan. 🙂

    Close behind her for contenders of my most loved character –

    – Sophia – absolutely loved her coochie lesson. It was so hilarious that so few of the ladies knew about the holes.

    – Morello – Mail fraud. I would never have dreamed this would be the reason she was in Litchfield. I would also never have guessed the backstory with her and Christopher.

    – Crazy eyes – Uzo is amazing. I will never get enough of this character. And she did an amazing mock up of reading for all the other characters with wigs on one of the websites I read..

    Characters on my list of not loved –

    – Alex. Not a fan.

    – Vee – do not love manipulative people like this in real life, really hate them on tv shows. I know she has a purpose and reason for being there and Lorraine Toussaint is amazing in this role but do.not.want. this character anywhere near me.

    – Soso – I would commit a crime just to get in and shank her, she is so irritating.

    Really enjoyed all of the backstories and did not find Piper to be as annoying this season but I am saying this is because we saw much less of her, thank the deities.

    Can I just mention while I have your attention for those of you who have access to sourcing tv shows from other countries – keep an eye out for Wentworth – it is a new Aussie version of Prisoner Cell Block H and it is excellent, right up there with this show as far as a great female cast though it is slightly less diverse there are some not stick thin people in it.

    • KinoEye

      That damn song. I have ALWAYS hated it, I still hate it, but it’s fun to mock-sing. My animals are not amused, but I am, and that’s all that counts.

      Yep, Kate nailed it. Love, love, love Red. She’s given me yet another reason to delve into Star Trek.

      Morello — Damn, I never would’ve guessed it was that serious. I’m usually pretty good about predicting insane plot twists, so it makes me happy when one hits me out of left field. Was totally biting my nails when she was sitting in the bathtub.

      Crazy eyes! In my top 5 for sure. Love her. Saw some pictures of Uzo out of character, and she is so, so pretty. Gorgeous smile, and such an interesting look.

      A big UGH to Piper and Alex, for sure. And Polly. AGGGGH. Her voice is nails on a chalkboard.

      • Šima

        First of all…jaw on floor at the Morello revelation. This show is unstoppable.

        Next, pedantic Russian-related interlude, since I cannot cease to marvel at the fact that TV shows are incapable of getting this right…(BUT this show comes admirably close)…

        Kate as Red is awesome, and I agree her English Russian accent is perfect, but I so regret the fact that no one could just come in and tell her where to place the stress on syllables when she speaks Russian. Like to a person who understands Russian, it sounds SUPER WEIRD/hilarious. It seems like a minor point, but in Russian stress typically only occurs on one syllable per word, and is very strong, and so when you place it incorrectly it is very very noticeable.

        Also fun fact, “na dzdorviye” (roughly “[consume] in health”) is rarely/never used as a toast. Instead it’s usually used to say “you’re welcome” when thanked for food you’ve offered. Toasts typically start with “Za” (this one’s for) and a list of people, or are long and ramblingly witty.

        Za nashikh chudesnykh dam v oranzhevom! (Here’s to our wonderful ladies in orange!)

    • Sarah

      THE SONG: I have a kind of compulsive hatred of all theme songs and jingles, regardless of their musical merit. This has something to do with their being repeated ad nauseam. I cannot handle repeating noises of any kind. Chinese water torture would WORK on me. So, we are in the habit of skipping theme music on Netflix, but for some reason my fiance likes to play that frikkin’ song. I only tolerated it at first because I was trying to identify the owners of the lips & eyes, but now I have gone through mild irritation to Outright Fury and beyond, into a weird zone wherein I think I might like that song. I feel so weird.

      • Heather

        I felt the same way about the song for ‘Weeds,’ Jenji Kohan’s other show. I always mute the song, but sometimes get the first few lines, and it remains in my head for the rest of the day.

    • MilaXX

      If you FF to about 1.25 you miss most of it. That’s how much that song irks.

      • Cheryl

        That’s what I’ve been doing, and I actually like Regina Spector, so I feel a bit bad about it. Hah, as if she cares!

      • Introspective

        you have described every viewing ive ever had of the show. cannot fucking take the song. so i ff and voila, i even forgot it existed until this thread reminded me.

    • demidaemon

      I actually love the song. Regina Spector can do no wrong, in my opinion. One of my favorite TV Theme songs.

      • MilaXX

        Maybe it’s because I binge watch, because I like Regina Spector, but after 2 eps I cannot with that song.

        • demidaemon

          I don’t binge watch, so I probably have a different view of the song than those who do.

          • dschubba

            I’m a binge watcher and I was a casual Regina Spektor fan before this show, but the song made me like her more.

        • Tina M.

          I always listen to it on the first episode I watch, but as I start to binge on the next few eps I have to skip it. And I like it! It just gets in the way. It’s also 3 songs tied together as one and the first part (“the animal, the animal”) grates the most on repetition imo.

      • butterflysunita

        I love the song and even binge watching did not change that. The part where she sings “Think of all the roads/think of all the crossings” always moves me.

    • Morello may be in the prison, if not for mail fraud, for federal stalking – crossing state lines while stalking (Atlantic City is in NJ).

  • Sarah

    I am so conflicted. I appreciate the fact that Vee is an interesting character, and she is surely making things exciting, but I also badly want someone to shiv her with a toothbrush. She is so danged EVIL that it is hard to watch her.

    • I feel exactly the same way but I thought this was partly because I am in conflict with someone in real life who is so like her. Good to know someone else feels like this. 🙂

      • Sarah

        Ouch! I hope your RL Vee is not as evil! Even though she manipulated the exchange in the bathroom to her own benefit, I still thought it was hilarious when Gloria was all “Get yourself together! I didn’t even HIT you” at the end of their chat. So funny.

        • Vee’s shuckin’ ‘n’ jivin’ act for Gloria in the bathroom is what really AMPED up my fear of her, because if she can do Gloria like that, I realized how easily she could manipulate ME!!!!

          • Cheryl

            Yep, that is what made me realize that she wasn’t just a bad woman, but a true sociopath. The way she played Gloria like a violin, was indeed frightening. It’s one thing to exploit Suzanne and Taystee, whose buttons are easy to see and push, but it would take a master to con the much tougher, savvier Gloria. She is truly scary.

      • Cheryl

        Unfortunately sociopaths are quite common, and not just restricted to criminals. Everyone probably knows a few, they might not be as evil as Vee, but they are equally manipulative to get exactly what they want. The scariest thing I found with the sociopaths I know, is how bloody charming they are. I still associate with one of them, for Pete’s sake, because he is so enjoyable to spend time with. I like him, but I do not trust him one little bit, and I would never let down my guard with him.

        • butterflysunita

          What are sociopaths like? I’m curious because I’ve suspected one of my friends is one.

          • Logo Girl

            Charming, manipulative, generally very good at doing whatever they like without any visible remorse (it doesn’t have to be criminal, it can be things like stealing someone else’s friends or a fair weather partner deliberately ambushing you with their new partner to bug you out or lying about whether they made your drink stronger than you asked for). Ironically also capable of SEEMING nice and caring when they need to be (Hi, Mom! Did you get my dozen red roses for Mother’s Day?”) Impulsive, gut feeling that they are deeply cold and would get anyone fired over admitting a mistake. Vengeful. Spiteful. Not that I have any exprerience with it.

    • KinoEye

      The way she takes advantage of Suzanne is, to me, the most evil thing she does. It’s the same way cult leaders and other people in positions of similar power operate. They find a broken person, desperate for something — love, acceptance, a role model, an escape — and use that to advance their own agenda. It’s even more awful since Suzanne has some sort of mental disability, and can’t defend herself like the other girls can, or recognize what’s happening to her. She just sees the mother and role model she never had. There’s a special place in hell for people who use others like that.

      • MilaXX

        I started calling her Fangin from the first flashback. She cons Taystee much like she cons Suzanne. The difference is someone like Taystee can rebound and recover from that kind of manipulation a lot easier than someone like Suzanne,

        • ShaoLinKitten

          You mean Fagin, from Oliver Twist? She’s definitely a Fagin.

      • Glammie

        Have to say that’s what I like about the character–that she really is a portrait of a psychopath. Smart, manipulative, fearless, heartless.

        There’s a high percentage of inmates with some sort of mental illness–even Piper’s got some major issues.

        • Mary Nease

          Not a psychopath- psychopaths don’t know the difference between right and wrong. Vee is a textbook sociopath. She knows the difference between right and wrong and doesn’t care. She lacks empathy and is totally self-serving.

          • Glammie

            Psychopath and sociopath are used pretty interchangeably. Knowing right from wrong is not the standard difference between the two. They’re both variations of an antisocial personality disorder–Vee’s not psychotic–she is violent (which some definitions use as the difference between sociopath and psychopath). But both psychopaths and sociopaths know what’s meant by right and wrong, but they don’t internalize it and feel neither empathy nor anxiety.

            I think Gloria’s got the right idea, give the woman her space.

          • perhaps a bit of narcissistic personality disorder thrown in for flavor?

      • ankali

        I’d just finished re-reading Helter Skelter before starting this season, so the cult-leader parallels did not escape me. I love watching Lorraine Toussaint act the hell out of this role (have not been this frightened by a fictional character since Hans Landa in Inglourious Basterds), but I feel exactly the same outrage at Vee’s manipulation of Suzanne.

  • ashtangajunkie

    The Vee-instigated divide between Poussey and Taystee hurts my heart. Morello’s reveal floored me – I think everyone knew that her wedding to Christopher was no longer a reality, but to find out it never was? WHOA.

    • Sarah

      Yeah, that is one of the main reasons why I’d take Vee out. I really love Poussey. She is somebody I’d like to be friends with.

      • demidaemon

        I have weirdly become a Taystee/Poussey shipper. Don’t judge me! 😉

        • Glammie

          I’m not a shipper, but I want them to stay friends and for Poussey to find a girlfriend who wants to really be her girlfriend. I actually like that there’s an examination of a lesbian/straight friendship. Poussey’s always been a favorite character of mine. She could get together with the Natasha Lyonne character–since they’re two of the most decent people on the show.

          • Sarah

            I don’t think Nicky is looking for a lasting relationship, if you get my drift, but yeah – definitely characters that are comfortable in themselves and comparatively neurosis-free.

          • Glammie

            Nicky–thank you. I seem to remember either the actor’s name or the character’s. Yeah, Nicky’s still early in her sobriety, so not a good time for long-term commitments, I suppose (well, that and some other things). But if she gets more serious, I’d still love her and Poussey together.

          • I’d just love to see their dynamic; as far as I know, they haven’t had a scene together.

          • Glammie

            Interesting. I don’t recall a scene between them–though that means zip in my case. Racial segregation seems to trump other commonalities in the prison. But Poussey wasn’t that way outside of the prison–don’t remember all the details of Nicky’s pre-prison life other than she was neglected, pretty affluent and a heroin addict. Next season, Samira Wiley’s a regular, so there may be some room to have her interact with some other characters.

          • Soozables

            Nicky and Poussey have a really nice scene upcoming in episode 7. Just watched it this morning!

        • Sarah

          Heh, I guess I don’t care about romance between them – other than feeling sad for P because she is unrequited – because it takes two to tango, relationship-wise. I am glad, though, that T knows about P’s feelings and is kind to her for it, and that their friendship is real and not a result of some kind of puppy-like adoration on P’s part. I really hate it when people discount the feelings of someone of the opposite orientation. That whole “I’m not gay, so it’s YOUR fault you’ve got feelings for me, and I can’t do anything about it.” You can at least be kind, you know?

          • ashtangajunkie

            That is a big part of why I like their friendship so much – that it is a real friendship and not just “this girl has a crush on me so I guess I can hang out with her to feed my ego.” I feel like lesbian/straight female friendships are never (or rarely anyway) shown on TV. I like that OITNB is showing that.

          • demidaemon

            I do agree. Although, it would probably be more striking if they ever have a show with a gay man and a straight man represented this way. It usually isn’t, in either situation, but I’m sure that the living situation of these two affect their reactions.

            It’s too bad Vee is already using it to tear them apart. 🙁

          • demidaemon

            Rejection should be treated that way, no matter the genders of those involved.

          • Sarah

            Yes, it sure should. The best breakup I ever had was with a guy who told me honestly that he liked me, and we could continue to date, but he didn’t see it going anywhere in the long run and maybe we’d be better off looking for other people. No failing to return calls, no cold shoulder, just friendly, respectful truth. I really liked him, but it didn’t hurt because he respected me enough to be kind.

          • & kind enough to treat you with respect.

          • theblondette

            Their cuddle was the sweetest thing.

          • demidaemon

            It was. Of course, Vee had to be the needle scratch to that moment.

        • Ain’t nuthin’ “weird” about that; POUSSEY RULES!

          • demidaemon

            Thanks! And she does! 🙂

      • ashtangajunkie

        Me too. I like Poussey more the more I learn about her.

    • ShaoLinKitten

      Me too! I love Poussey so much. She’s my favorite character, and watching Vee clinically and deliberately drive a wedge between them was so painful. Equally painful was watching Vee turn Suzanne into a thug. Ugh. Vee is a monster, but I love the conflict and drama she brought to the show.

      • Scimommy

        Make room in the Poussey fan club, peeps! I love her, root for her, and was very, VERY worried about her when she was standing up to Vee. Also my heart was breaking for her during the flashback scenes (although I can’t remember if it was in these episodes or later – the whole season is kind of blending together at this point).

        • ShaoLinKitten

          The only plot point I let anyone spoil me about was Poussey’s outcome. That’s how worried I was.

    • Cheryl

      I wasn’t surprised that the wedding was Morello’s fantasy from the beginning, but I actually thought that Christopher was part of the fantasy. I thought she made him up, I was shocked at the back story when they met.

      • I thought she made him up too, or at least their relationship. I was surprised she had actually had a conversation and date with him.

    • Eva_baby

      I know. I am heartsick that she is messing up ‘Amanda’ and ‘MacKenzie.’ Taystee and Possey’s relationship is one of my favorite things about the show. I am only on ep 6 right now and I am so nervous about where this is all gonna go with them.

      • Maybe the show NEEDED that, because when Taystee & Poussey are riffin’ off each other, it makes prison look TOO FUN!!!!

    • Introspective

      seriously vee is breaking my heart by unraveling poussey and taystee. hate that their friendship is being driven off the rails with just a few simple gestures on vee’s end. and to echo all the bk’s lorraine toussaint is incredible. and has been in everything that she’s done prior… i remember her from back in the day as a sometimes special guest lawyer on law and order, and she was just so good in such a formulaic context that i know she will be glorious in a role with this much depth… & can i just say again how much i appreciate ointb for allowing a plethora of actresses of color to shine in a way that is just not duplicated anywhere else??

      i too knew that morello and christopher were a no go, but like all of you, jaw dropped and face palmed incessantly when i realized she was stalking the shit out of him. and whats the deal with her apparently getting family help to do it in this ep, as the sister told her about his upcoming real wedding, which set off that ill-advised “visit” to his house?? yael stone is also a powerhouse actress clearly.

      that is all. im now up to ep 6. want to binge so bad but instead doing a reward system: as i finish the edits to my book on each chapter, I give myself the reward of watching an ep. book is due august 1. i cannot wait that long to watch this show so it is the only thing that is making me move faster!!!

  • Cheryl

    I can’t be the only one that wasn’t surprised that Morello barely even knew “Chwistopher”. I’ve dealt with someone just as delusional, and to keep the peace, just went along with her story. I think Morello’s fellow inmates, were well aware of the bullshit, but chose not to make an issue for the same reason. Morello always annoyed me because perhaps because she reminded me of my equally delusional, but probably not as dangerous, co-worker. As much as I hate the character, I have to say I have great admiration for the actor Yael Stone.

    • MilaXX

      I wasn’t surprised that Lorna barely knew Christopher. I figured most if not all of the romance was in her head. What surprised me was the stalking to the point of making a car bomb in the attempt to kill off the real girlfriend and well, the rest of it.

  • Anita Karenin

    I’m almost as sick of the pregnant inmate plot as I am of Polly and Larry.

  • trapperkeeper

    “A Whole Other Hole” was probably my favorite of Season 2. Thanks T&L for a wonderful recap on a beautifully written and acted episode! Yael Stone just hit the ball out of the park with her heart-wrenching portrayal of Morello. Also, I will never hear “Almost Paradise” in the same way again. A+++++

    • demidaemon

      I don’t mind Polly either. Larry, of course, bugs, but i think that’s the point. He’s supposed to bug.

    • Tina M.

      You just blew my mind. I didn’t realize Polly=Dolores! Wow, that actress is much better than I gave her credit for. That actually makes me like her character way more.

      Still hate Larry and Piper’s mom though.

    • She’s the “daddy” women, isn’t she? ETA: on Louie, I mean.

      • Heather

        Yes! Also love her in the ‘Ikea’ episode.


  • grasshack

    Did I fall asleep & miss the backstory on Vee? I’ll have to watch the whole season again…

    • MilaXX

      Vee’s backstory is mixed in with a lot of Taystee’s back story until you get near the end of the season. There’s no how she became bad or how she ended up in prison. I assumed it was one of her drug deals gone bad.

      • grasshack

        Thanks – I do remember seeing that. Was hoping they showed her as a young person. Then, again, that was probably heart-wrenching.

        • I haven’t finished S2 yet, but I hope they leave room for more of Vee!

  • MilaXX

    I sort of agree with the assessment of Healey, but I still found the character a bit odd. The relationship between him and Pennsatucky for one thing, and some other things that happen later. Can we stick a pin in this one and come back to it? I binged last weekend and I don’t think all the scenes I’m thinking of have happened yet.

    I really liked and was pleasantly surprised with Lorna’s back story. One of the few times this season I was truly biting my nails anxious.

    • I can never not love Healy because I love the actor so much, since the NYPD blue days when he played Mike Roberts. I think this gets in my way of thinking about the character he plays, so I will wait to read more when you unstick the pin. 😉

      I would say something about the scene with his Russian wife but I am not certain it has happened yet. 🙂

  • DinaSews

    The one thing I find bizarre is how multi-dimensional most of the characters are except Piper. It almost seems like her character is written by a different writer.

    • Donna Tabor

      Since it’s autobiographical, that makes sense. The writer can see everyone else but herself.

      • Chevalle

        Definitely not autobiographical. Piper Kerman =/= Piper Chapman. Kerman is not a writer in the show, and the things Chapman goes through are the not even the same thing as Kerman’s book. They didn’t even go to jail for the same crime.

        • Mary Nease

          From her wikipedia page: “A self-described WASP, in 1993 she entered into a romantic relationship with a woman who dealt heroin for a West African kingpin. Kerman laundered money for the drug operation.” Not exactly the same crime, but pretty damn close.

  • Glammie

    Sorry, guys, I hated the coochie storyline. I’m supposed to believe a bunch of grown women don’t know they have a urethra separate from their vagina and that it takes a man-turned-woman to set them straight on female anatomy? I mean, c’mon, a little masturbation, a little where-do-babies-come-from and how-do-you-pee-when-pregnant? settles that for most of us. I’m supposed to believe Piper thinks the urethra’s over to the side?! That Taystee, who’s shown signs of having a brain, hasn’t thought about this one.

    We’re supposed to believe that these women have worn tampons for four days a month for years and *not* figured out that the urine’s coming from elsewhere? And where that elsewhere is? I *might* buy this for one character, but it looks like we had a whole group of women who needed a basic anatomy lecture.

    I like Laverne Cox and I like the character she plays, but this storyline struck me as the writers trying to show us how real a woman Sophia is by insulting the other women. Not cool. (And, yes, I know a woman wrote it–not a good excuse.)

    • Anita Karenin

      it made me deeply uncomfortable for similar reasons although I suspect referring to Sophia as a “man-turned-woman” will get you raked over the coals in certain forums.

      • Glammie

        I know, but that’s part of what was dinging so badly–it was a little too much missionary preaching to the unlearned savages. Yes, Sophia would have a major reason to know about female genitalia–but so do women who were born with female apparatus. And since female genitalia is the focus of the story line, I’d say referring to Sophia’s physical transformation is valid. This is not about Sophia’s inner sense of self.

        • It’s an offensive thing to refer to a transgender woman as “a man-turned-woman.”

          • Glammie

            I get that, but the reason Sophia knew so much is that she had designed her own female anatomy. There was the very strong implication that Sophia knew more than someone like Taystee because she had chosen to transition. And I admit to being an old-school feminist here, but there’s a long history of men telling women what they should do with their genitalia. I realize that Sophia is a woman, but this storyline got too close to that history for comfort because of Sophia’s history and previous identity.

            I mean, wasn’t the comedy of the story that it was a transgender woman educating the cis women about female anatomy? It wouldn’t have been funny if say, Rosa, was educating them.

            That said, I apologize for crossing the line on the terminology. I wanted to make my point clear, but clearly I went over the line when I did so.

    • L’Anne

      Actually, I thought it was hilarious and a bit over the top, BUT I have had college students with such a poor understanding of female genital anatomy that they had no idea the vagina didn’t have the urinary opening tucked in it, or that they had a clitoral hood, or that the ovaries were attached to the tubes by fibrous tissues. I even had a student a few years ago that still thought the uterus could move around the abdomen! Most bio classes do not cover genital anatomy, and if someone attended an abstinence only school, they get NO instruction about their genitalia at all because that is thought to encourage exploration and experimentation. While the sheer number of women with no clue seemed over the top (and honestly some of the women were pretty close to the anatomy, just off on locations), the lack of knowledge itself was not a surprise at all to me.

      • Glammie

        But none of these women seem particularly sheltered in that way. Several of them are active lesbians, so they’ve spent some exploratory time down there.

        Two-thirds of the women in federal prisons are mothers. There are all sorts of reasons one gets to know external anatomy at that point. Being poorly schooled may make you ignorant about how fallopian tubes are connected–but no sense that there’s a pee hole that’s not the vagina? Not buying it. Again, use of a tampon clues you in pretty quickly that the urine doesn’t come from the vagina.

        Sorry, I think it was a serious misfire–and patronizing toward poor women in a way that bugs me–because who didn’t know? Black women and poor white trash. Oh, and the bisexual goes-down Piper who somehow missed the obligatory Our Bodies/Ourselves perusal at her women’s college?

        • MilaXX

          IIRC Poussey was one of the ones trying to explain correctly how many “holes” were down there.

          • L’Anne

            And that is actually one the reasons this rang true. Also, being sexually aware and not sheltered from sexual active is not the same as being educated to anatomy. And honestly, tampons leak. While it seems so ridiculous that someone wouldn’t know that urine doesn’t come out of the vagina, anyone who has ever, even once, experienced tampon leakage could easily think that urine could come out as well. If you look at some of what the women said, they were– many of them– on the right track, just off on location or relationship to the other holes (Piper, Poussey, even Leanne, but sweet moogly googly, I loved her “cave system” comment, and Suzanne).

            And having had children doesn’t mean, by definition, that a woman really learns about all parts of her external anatomy. How much she learns is related to level of prenatal care, the doctor, and even the books she reads. A LOT of pregnancy manuals are basically focused on behaviors, fetal development, and the interior body– not on the clit, or the mons, or the labias, etc. This goes for women of means and poor women. One can get a top-flight education without ever taking a class that covers sexual anatomy.

          • Glammie

            But it doesn’t *take* a class–it takes looking at a picture.

            Look, at this point, I’d say we’re splitting the difference between possible–is it possible all these women are that ignorant? Yes–and probable–is it likely that all these women would be that ignorant? No.

          • MilaXX

            But in real life how many women are curious enough to look at a picture. even in pop culture you have women who have never looked at their own vagina. Sex in the city had a storyline with Charlotte and even Gawker did a piece on women looking at their own vaginas in the mirror. It’s really not that unusual.

          • L’Anne

            nd Charlotte was a sexually active women from a wealthy family with a 7 Sisters degree.

            And actually, not all of the women WERE that ignorant. Most just off on location of the urethra. Was it on the side of the opening of the vagina (which wouldn’t impact a tampon as they are placed farther up usually)? Was it under or by the clit?

            And in my experience (and I teach a lot of classes on women’s history, including histories of women’s bodies and a general history of the body class), many MANY women do NOT want to learn about female genitals, even to look at a drawing or labelled medical illustration. Why? They’ve been taught that interest in the genitals of their sex is a sign of lesbianism and they desperately don’t want to be or just be seen as gay.

          • “Why? They’ve been taught that interest in the genitals of their sex is a
            sign of lesbianism and they desperately don’t want to be or just be
            seen as gay.”

            I’m not sure – I’m sure less so now, but when I grew up I had an understanding that men could be gay (AIDs! The Sydney Mardi Gras!) but not that women could be. But there was a pervasive message that nice girls didn’t touch down there or pay attention to those bits AND that they were smelly and gross anyway. Same outcome of course, just a different set of neuroses getting there.

          • Glammie

            Sigh, you don’t want to even get me started on Sex and the City. Yep, despite my being the target demographic, I really hated it, though I liked the original book.

          • Glammie

            She was and, honestly, if the storyline had just been her and Taystee, I’d have had fewer problems with it. It would have been more of a story about friendship and more reasons to love Poussey. Poussey’s a regular next season–hooray. She’s just always been a favorite of mine–Samira Wiley is a terrific actress in a relatively quiet role.

    • MilaXX

      You’d be surprised at the amount of women and young girls who are totally ignorant of their own anatomy.

      • Glammie

        Young girls, sure. But sexually active women? To *that* degree? Internal organs, sure. The ins and outs of the menstrual cycle, sure. But somehow missing that the tampon’s not blocking the urine? That’s too much.

        • Mary Nease

          I hate tampons and never use them. If I hadn’t decided to take my sex ed upon myself after being grievously failed by the public school system, I wouldn’t have known that the urethra and vagina are two separate holes.

        • MilaXX

          Yes sexually active women and women who have had children. I know women who won’t use tampons because they believe you should stick stuff “up there.” Hell I even worked with a woman who had a 7 year old child with CP who thought it was because she allowed the doctor to perform an internal exam when pregnant. Now of course she wasn’t the norm, but I’ve seen more than my fair share of grown women ignorant of their own anatomy.

          Mine you I worked in social services so my views may be a bit skewed.

          • L’Anne

            From what I’ve seen, from family, friends, my students, most people only learn about the menstrual parts, and even then, they are reluctant to use correct biological names for them. Even adults. I was unfriended last year on Facebook when I posted something to my friend’s wall when she asked what slang terms people liked to teach to kids for their private parts. I said it was counter-productive and even children could learn the correct terms. Like many words, they might not pronounce the words correctly, but there was no reason not know what they really are called. A vagina is a vagina, and honestly, that sounds a lot less dirty or silly than pootie or chacha or whatever. So another friend unfriended me because to her, vagina IS a dirty word. This is a woman with a degree, who has had 2 kids, and a hysterectomy. It doesn’t surprise me at all to see unintentional ignorance about the body when the world is replete with so much willful ignorance or raunchifying of it that we avoid honest discussion about it.

          • Glammie

            And, again, my point is not that the women would have known all the correct terminology, but a basic bit of physiology that is apparent for many functional reasons.

          • L’Anne

            But what I’ve said several times, is that the women, at least Poussey, Suzanne, Piper, and somewhat Leanne (with the urinary opening being in the edge of the vagina and that start of the cave system), were not THAT ignorant, just off on location/ position. What MANY of us have been noting is that low levels of even the most basic understanding of female genital anatomy is highly common, even among a group of educated, smart, intelligent women. That some women would be completely off, some slightly off, and some just fantastical (I SO badly want a vaginal cave system!) is pretty realistic.

            And I’m going to say this as well. I loved that was Sophia to give me a pleasant, friendly, educational talk to her fellow women inmates. I LOVED that a transperson was written as funny, smart, and personable. So often, if we even see transpeople at all, they are written as deviant, evil, mean, manipulative– almost always as negative characters in some way (Nip/Tuck had some variety in the transpeople, but still Ava was pretty horrible), and last season, we saw a fair bit of Sophia being negative (wanting to take a nun’s hormones or have her wife smuggle drugs in). How refreshing to see a warm, funny, intelligent transwoman just have a bodyItalk with other women in a friendly way. I love how Sophia is such a nuanced character.

          • Glammie

            I agree that it’s good to see Sophia written and played as a well-rounded character. But, as I’ve explained above, this plot line did not work for me. For me, it brings up too many other issues. Remember, this isn’t a documentary, the writers are telling to choose this story in this particular way.

            Her plot line didn’t bother me last season because all the prisoners are in there for something (though it would be interesting to see someone who is actually innocent–but who maybe took a shorter sentence than she would have faced with a trial.) and Sophia’s story made it clear just how unhappy and desperate she was. I think it balanced fairly well Sophia’s desperate need to transition and maintain her feminine characteristics with hormones with her actions also being seen as selfish by her ex-wife. It made it very human because there is no perfect resolution. Sophia made the choice she needed to make.

        • CommentsByKatie

          I also hate tampons and have never used one, and had never looked at my vagina. I have been having sex for many years. I just grew up in a super conservative family and self-exploration and tampons have always felt gross to me. (They are NOT; I think my over-sheltering might have screwed me up a bit.) I am honesty not sure I could have told you exactly where the uretha was before watching this episode. I did vaguely know it was separate from the major opening. Just wanted to represent my perspective.

          Edit: I noticed that education was being brought into the picture – I have a Masters Degree. It’s in English Literature, though, so I’m not sure it counts. 😉

          • Glammie

            Well, it depends on which part of English Literature you focused . . . 🙂 Jane Austen or Henry Miller?

            I do feel like I inadvertently started a Jezebel thread here.

          • CommentsByKatie

            Shakespeare! I spent a year in London that really helped me shake off the narrow worldview I was raised with. (Though perhaps this thread has revealed that I have a little ways to go, yet.) I also minored in philosophy.

        • Amelia

          This may be TMI, but if I pee with a tampon in, it absorbs some urine. Not that difficult to use tampons and still not figure out that the urethra isn’t in the vagina. I’ve also known women who were sexually active/had children who didn’t know what a clitoris was, that women could have orgasms or who believed that the hymen literally sealed up the vagina until they had sex. People can be remarkably ignorant, even when they have resources all around them.

    • I think you’d be shocked to learn, then, how many educated women in the real world can’t tell you where their urethra is. A lot of public schools aren’t scrupulous about female anatomy, let alone sex ed. It’s perfectly possible to be intelligent, like Taystee, and not have been either educated about it or prompted to find out. Not like with the way she grew up, she had hours to browse the internet about things that weren’t pertinent to her day-to-day life.

      • Glammie

        I live in the real world, Laura. And I didn’t need a sex-ed course to figure that one out. Pre-Internet.

        I’ll add UTIs to periods and pregnancy as reasons why a woman might notice more than one hole.

        But, hey, if it’s so common, how come no one’s said, “Hey, I didn’t know that ’til I saw the show.”

        So, I’m keeping my skeptical eyebrow raised on this one. I’ll take ignorance in one character, but not a large group of them.

        • Good for you for figuring that out! Well, I’m a feminist with a bachelor’s degree and I didn’t know the exact location of my urethra either before that episode. Seriously, if you aren’t too embarrassed, try asking all the women you know if they can tell you where it is. I’d like to know the results of that survey.

          Also, you have people like L’Anne above telling you that she’s taught college students who didn’t have a clue.

          • Glammie

            Feminist major and you never looked at a picture? Never noticed where the urine came from? Who’s not living in the real world?

            L’Anne’s just another person on the Internet. I differ with her on this subject and have agreed with her on others. She’s offered anecdotal evidence, but certainly not anything that decides the matter definitively. So, no I don’t see any particular reason to change my mind because somewhere someone who teaches doesn’t agree with me.

            And, yes, the women I know where their urethras are. It’s slightly easier than Where’s Waldo?.

          • Yes, I’ve seen drawings of female genitalia, but either the urethra wasn’t labeled or I didn’t notice it. If you think that everyone in the same situation isn’t in the real world… well, it’s awfully crowded here. By the way, I never accused you of being outside the “real world,” either.

            ETA: “Never noticed where the urine came from?” No, I don’t have my head tucked between my legs when I pee. 🙂 If it was as easy as that, I think it wouldn’t be such a mystery for women.

            Again, I’m happy for you and your enclave of knowledgeable women. All you should take away from this conversation (not just with me, but L’Anne and MilaXX, etc.) is that that’s not a universal condition. Women of all social classes and experiences may live and die without learning the location of their urethra. That ignorance doesn’t interfere with them being sexually active, having babies, etc.

          • Glammie

            You wrote: “I think you’d be shocked to learn how many women in the real world”. I think I understood your intent and your current inference with the “enclave” comment. Because I don’t share your view I must be sheltered among the peculiarly knowledgeable or something.

            Well, I think this has devolved, appropriately, into a pissing contest.

          • No, I wasn’t trying to say you were outside the real world in that comment. I was making a statement about the “real world” in which we (you and I) live, compared to the show, since you were protesting the fictional representation of a large group of ignorant women. I admit I used “enclave” in a tongue-in-cheek way, because I have a little bit of a hard time buying that you’ve actually asked all the women you know about this. But I don’t want to argue about that, because I don’t actually have any cause to doubt your word. Only the fact that it seems radically different to what I and most other commenters in this thread have experienced, prompted “enclave.” Also I like the word.

            You got me thinking with your previous comment, asking me if I’ve never seen a drawing. I just don’t get your incredulity that everyone who’s seen, even just once, a drawing of female genitalia doesn’t remember the position of the urethra. Because I know when I first encountered such a drawing, the urethra was the least interesting thing there. “Yeah yeah, that’s where pee comes out. Now what about this clitoris? And labia folds? And there’s the vagina, but that looks waaay too small for either dicks or babies…” So give us a little slack for not paying attention to the urethra (especially since, when you’re in school, it may not immediately click that that word means “source of pee”).

          • Glammie

            I’m a mother, most (not all) of the women I know are mothers–and when kids are small, the conversations can get pretty graphic and nitty-gritty. That’s why I know they know–as well as knowing who decided to have their son cut or not cut, masturbation among very young children, etc. A young baby goes through 70 diapers a week (cloth, not Pampers, which can take more.). When you clean a baby’s bits 70 times a week, you get to know the territory and you’re on the look-out for rashes, infections, etc. Then there’s toilet training and the kid’s fascination with toilet training . . . and the conversations about *that*.

            “Most commenters” aren’t commenting on this part of the thread, period. So three against one–it’s just not that meaningful. Though, as an old-school feminist, I’m always wary of the-majority-must-be-right tactic–it’s been used far too often against women who don’t conform.

          • Anita Karenin

            I’m with you on the “nitty gritty.” Anyone who’s had a yeast infection or a UTI is going to figure out that there are 2 holes pretty quick. And tbh I’m shocked those issues haven’t come up on the show yet. It was astonishing to see grown-ass women think it came out of THE SAME HOLE. Truly bizarre.

          • Carrie Kapow Shelton

            Great point! I had daughters…and could see by their anatomy how many holes were down there when changing diapers! Duh!!!

          • Em, if you are a feminist, somewhere you must have a copy of “Our Bodies, our selves”. Its about as old school of a feminist tome that exists. It comes with explicit information about a woman’s anatomy. I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 62 and there were many many workshops/lectures/you name it on the importance of women getting to know their anatomy. Know of many where you were provided with a mirror and a speculum to get acquainted.

            Its discussions like this that made me determined my kids weren’t leaving my house ignorant of something as important as who you are as a sexual being, and what its all about. You cant ignore that one is integrated into the other. We dont come in two separate parts even though there are those who would like us to remain stunningly ignorant about our sexual persons. Well, both are young adults who seem to be confident and knowledgeable there.

            While its unrelated, the comment by L’Anne saying shes taught college students who dont have a clue reminds me of a friend of mine who was a professor at FIDM in downtown LA for 30+ years. She said in later years she got students who wanted to be designers yet didnt know the business end of an iron or sewing machine and didnt understand WHY they had to know. She says no wonder Sir Tim gets so blindingly frustrated. Its also one of the reasons she retired early.

          • MilaXX

            Isn’t Our Bodies, Our Selves out of print. I’ve read it, but I don’t know if anyone under say 40 has seen it.

          • Carrie Kapow Shelton

            I own it.

          • I wasn’t given a booklist when I decided I was a feminist. I don’t have The Female Eunuch, The Feminine Mystique or A Vindication on the Rights of Women, although they were all on my mother’s bookshelf when I was growing up.

          • Well, then it appears I’m hopelessly dated. Those books you refer to and Our bodies ourselves were the first books on the subject way back when and the most read, referred to, argued, and fought over as regards feminism.

            I talked to my DD about this subject and the discussion we are having. She was President of the Feminist Student Alliance for several years in college. She said that the books I’m referring to are all ones they considered as important, but are now more like history books or reference books. She said the organization has a list of recommended readings which are more current publications.

            So, I’ll just sit my historical ass over here in the corner. I must say though, it was an exciting time to have been there in the beginning and to see how far things have progressed. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. It’s what the uninformed old can do unwittingly.

          • I like it when the second wavers get feisty!

          • Same, Alicia. I consider my mother a feminist, though I’ve never heard her describe herself as such and she didn’t have any of those books. But she made me aware of women’s issues in little ways, from very early on, like when we watched old movies or shows and she pointed out how in the credit roll, the only women’s names who appeared were the costume designers. And also how fucked-up those old cartoons were of cavemen clubbing women over the head to drag them back to their caves by their hair. Stuff that, as a child, you can easily absorb in your consciousness as being “normal” or okay.

        • I didn’t know the exact location before the show. Neither did 8 other women at my work place, and 5 others who did not even see the show but got dragged into the discussion we had about it. We ended up having to google for an anatomy photo because some people were dead certain it was in a place it was not. (yay IT department is likely to love that search term!)

          And as I said, we have pretty good sex ed here in Australia at least when I grew up. The older ladies were the most off when it came to locating where stuff actually was and this is likely because the sex ed they got was different back in the 60’s to what it was in the 80’s when I experienced it. These scenes rang true to me. I think that was partly because women are nowhere near as fascinated with our own parts as we probably should be. 🙂

    • I hate to tell you, I work in a workplace of a lot of females and after this episode aired we had a conversation about this – not a single one of us and I include me knew where the urethra actually was prior to this discussion on OITNB. Most of them (including me) had thought it was in the clitoris somewhere.

      And we have pretty good sex ed here in Australia. 🙂

      You have to remember a lot of women in jail probably did not have the worlds best education. Even if they did, I’m thinking America is not like Australia where everyone is sat down in a big room at a certain age and told the facts of life. There are a lot of issues that can mean sometimes people do not get that same education – these days they’ll get it in the schoolyard from other kids. But how did sex ed happen in the era these women would have been in school?

      • Glammie

        Funny, I had a talk with my 13-year-old this evening and, yep, she knew and figured it out early.

        Education, well of the formal sort, had *nothing* to do with it. Childish exploration and curiosity, on the other hand (or with the hand) did.

        • So basically you are right no matter what anyone else says?

          Ok, will move on to other more fruitful discussions then, no need to waste my time with this one.

          • Glammie

            Nope, but all any of us are doing is swapping anecdotes.

          • Really? Because from where I’m sitting, a bunch of people are offering up personal stories that you’re dismissing out of hand one after another because they don’t conform with your point of view.

          • Glammie

            Okay, guys–it was not my intention to get everyone mad, so I’m just going to bow out of this thread.

      • “Even if they did, I’m thinking America is not like Australia where
        everyone is sat down in a big room at a certain age and told the facts
        of life. There are a lot of issues that can mean sometimes people do not
        get that same education – these days they’ll get it in the schoolyard
        from other kids. But how did sex ed happen in the era these women would
        have been in school?”

        A friend of mine is a teacher in a pretty good public school (as in state school, not “public” school) in the UK and she confessed to being terrified when it came up that she had to do the sex talk for a class this year. She went to a Catholic school herself, and grew up in a conservative family so she has never really *had* the sex talk herself. I am not sure the kids she was teaching were going to get the highest quality education on the topic!

      • Anita Karenin

        I think it’s reasonable to think it’s in the clit, since the labia/clit boundaries can be kind of porous. But come on!!! How many women out of 100 don’t know that there’s a second hole?! For real?

    • Nyltiak

      I’ll tell you, I will never be surprised at how much any given woman does not understand her own genitalia. Especially given that a lot of these women are uneducated/poorly educated. I live in the dirty south and education is…. not good, especially sex ed. I bet if I polled my female coworkers at least half would be on the same page as the women at Litchfield.

    • Susan Velazquez

      I’m laughing really hard at your disbelief because, sadly yes, women don’t know our own anatomy. My mother is a nurse, and we had an argument because she didn’t believe we had 3 holes down there! I gave a sex talk to my male friend and he tried to argue with me that there were only 2 holes down there. I just looked at him and said, “Which one of us has the vagina here?” and he shut up.

    • Carrie Kapow Shelton

      THANK YOU! This episode pissed me off to no end. How the HELL are women thinking they pee out of their vaginas? WTF? Execute them all. Too dumb to live. Every tampon box comes with ILLUSTRATED directions!!!

  • demidaemon

    I always felt that the Healy and wife scenes weren’t supposed to make us feel sorry for him. In fact, I always believe their purpose was to highlight just how ineffectual and sad he is. Because every time the two of them are together, I don’t feel sorry for Healy at all. In fact, it makes me feel as though he gets what he deserves, as his wife is clearly akin to a mail-order bride (if not one for certain), and clearly emphasizes his position as a misogynistic, anti-feminist, homophobe.

    • Does marrying a “mail-order bride” necessarily imply all of those adjectives? I am acquainted with multiple men who found wives that way, and in all cases it was a mutual agreement between consenting adults that has resulted in a lasting union. A relationship initiated via correspondence doesn’t mean a woman is a sex slave or object.

      It seems that Healy makes an effort with his wife, and was hoping for a genuine relationship to grow. She does not put forth the same effort, and I find that sad despite his other failings. Working on a relationship with her might actually help him become better as his job, but he is rather cruelly rebuffed in his attempts to connect.

      • demidaemon

        I suppose it doesn’t, no. And the relationship does seem rather one-sided, now that you point that out. I still find it hard to sympathize with him, as he takes out his frustrations on the undeserving, and didn’t make an effort to learn his wife’s language until he was forced to (when Red lost her position), when he probably should have done that ages ago. He still has a very antiquated POV on women, in my opinion, and I still think that is part of why his relationship with his wife is shown. Since the relationship is shown in media res, I feel like something happened at the beginning to create this cold war of sorts that we are not seeing. For some reason, I sympathize more with his wife, but maybe that is because I have seen how he treats other women as well.

        • judybrowni

          Also: the picture of mail order brides LesYeuxHiboux is painting is by no means complete.

          Unless it includes the murder and domestic violence that occurs — routinely enough that immigration law had to be changed in order to give those women a way out of those marriages.

          Think about it: these are men who somehow only find women to their liking who come from financially-and/or socially horrific countries, women who don’t speak their own language, often.

          Now why would that be? Hmmmmm.

          I know one man who married a mail order bride, who is perplexed by her coldness to him. A man who had to buy somebody in order to marry a woman, at all.

          He’s the only one surprised she’s not happy with the bargain.

          • demidaemon

            Excellent points. You hit on everything I was thinking but didn’t express.

  • Actually, Gloria mentioned the Santeria connection back in the first season, when she was mixing up a supposed abortifacient for Daya.

    MAN, the revelation of just how batshit Lorna is, was so well done. “One date.” Yeah. And that absolutely horrifying image of her sinking into the bath with the wedding veil. Then stealing the teddy bear off the bed. So, so creepy. And I got really scared for Christopher at the end of the ep, when Lorna said, “I want him to see my face.”

    Oh, and Red found a pipeline. Literally. That was probably the one bit of this episode we found just a little too convenient. She walks into an unused shed, sees a mouse, and in seconds, discovers a major security breach. Fine. Go with that, but it’s a little silly.
    Heheh, you’re right about that. As well as about how goddamn boring Larry and Polly’s fuck-ups are.

    And yes, Sophia educating everyone on female genitalia was an A+ moment. As was the guessing game between Hal and Piper, ending in “Grandmother is dying!” *high five* before the realization sinks in…

    You guys are right about the complexity they’re throwing on Healy’s character — not enough to make me actually sympathize with him, but to make me feel pretty uncomfortable. And oh man, yeah…over this whole season, they really drive home the point about how much these prisoners’ lives are affected by the whims and egos of those in charge.

    I also like how Caputo’s character is being developed — he’s a sleaze, but he cares more about the prisoners’ well-being than anyone else employed by Licthfield.

    Yes, Vee is quite terrifying, and a terrific actress (as a character, as well as the actual woman playing her).

  • theblondette

    I’m up to episode 5 so it was fun to see this update go up! Two very strong episodes. I’m so interested in how the Vee storyline will play out. She is a fascinating character. So dangerous and manipulative. I do think she genuinely cares about Taystee, but that makes things more interesting. The only time you get female characters anywhere near this type in mainstream media is as stereotypical man-eating manipulators. I love that the show has not gone that route. Vee is so extraordinarily socially confident and able, and absolutely, entirely convinced of her own way being the only way. Even while I was upset at how she drove a wedge between Poussey and Taystee, I felt a reluctant admiration for her cleverness. And then the way she won that disagreement with Gloria! Masterful. She is the most dangerous person in that prison, for sure. I really want to know more about how she and Red know each other.

    Contrary to what other commentators here have said, I liked that Sophia was the one giving the education about female genitalia. There ARE many women who have troublingly little knowledge of their own bodies. Many schools in the US don’t provide the necessary information and many of those women in any case seem to have had little formal education and have also lacked much input from parental figures. They are shown as often having dysfunctional relationships with men and being subjected to misogyny and body-shaming. Not a surprise to me at all, and though the scene was played for laughs, I think it also got to make the point that Sophia has really worked – and given up a huge amount – to get to look like the woman she has always known herself to be, and that gives her a confidence in her own femininity that some of the other women lack.

    • Yes — I have a bachelor’s degree, I’m a feminist, but I couldn’t have told you the exact location of my urethra. I went to private schools mostly, and the amount of education for sex ed and basic anatomy of genitalia was shitty to nonexistent.

      • demidaemon

        It’s not much different in public schools. In fact, it could be worse, depending. I’m sure secular private schools probably do an okay job of it.

      • Carrie Kapow Shelton

        Um, there are pictures in any tampon directions?So…. I dont get it. How can someone NOT KNOW???

    • I too loved that it was Sophia who did the educating and it made a lot of sense to me. I do think there are many more women out there than anyone would expect who do not know the exact location of their parts and I’m willing to put my hand up and admit I was one of them myself.

      We take what we have for granted as long as everything is working as it should. If there is something you really, really want, you tend to research it and know more about it than someone who has owned it for a long time and doesn’t covet it in that same way. I don’t doubt for a second that the character Sophia would have done all the research and know all about it and be able to educate others on it. 🙂

      • MilaXX

        I’ve been thinking about this. It made sense to me because Sophia in her pre transition state would of course look up the info, in part preparation for her surgery, but I would also bet in part out of longing and just plain curiosity. Whereas many of us born with female anatomy might not for a plethora of reasons; lack of education, religious upbringing and just plain old taking it for granted. I learned it because it was part of my study in college. Before then although I knew the names of the various parts, I can’t say I was curious to stick a mirror down there and look. So having a group full of women with a vague idea of what exactly was down there and where wasn’t surprising to me.

        • H2olovngrl

          I stuck a mirror down there when I was a teenager, and I encourage daughters to do the same. Familiarity breeds comfort. I want it to be less of a “thing” for them. We also try to use the correct names for all genitalia, although slang slips in upon occasion.

    • ShaoLinKitten

      I do not think Vee cares about Taystee at all. I think Vee is a stone cold sociopath who only sees other humans as a means to an end, which is enriching and empowering Vee herself. The way she treated RJ was just ice cold. And any time she fears she will lose the upper hand, she either goes into “poor me!” guilt trip mode, or feigns weakness to gain advantage. If she really cared about Taystee, she would not have systematically destroyed any chance that child had for a better life. In Litchfield, she continued to belittle Taystee and make her feel indebted for the basic care that any child is entitled to. She’s a monster, possibly the only actual 100% villain with no redeeming value we’ve seen on the show.

      • theblondette

        The thing is, it’s entirely possible to care about someone and yet still be cruel to them. I think we (people in general) have an unfortunate tendency to generalise that affective relationships and abuse don’t go together. I think Vee is enormously manipulative, controlling, and calculating. But that doesn’t mean she is incapable of love. Love isn’t a gold-plated standard for good human behaviour, after all.

        But that’s the nice thing about art – we can all interpret it in different ways!

        • ShaoLinKitten

          I saw not one scintilla of love from Vee towards Taystee. I read an interview with Lorraine Toussaint where she revealed that Jenji Kohan told her that that Vee was a straight up psychopath, and to play her accordingly. I think she did a really good job of convincing Taystee that what she was doling out what love, but it wasn’t.

          • theblondette

            Thanks! I may check it out. However, as an academic with postmodernist sensibilities, I’m (inn very broad terms) of “the author is dead” school so Jenji Kohan’s intentions aren’t a dealbreaker for me in my reading of OITNB-as-text 😉

  • Ahhhh I couldn’t mete out the episodes and wait – I finished the whole season last night. /dead It was so good.

    • MilaXX

      You were more disciplined than me. I finished last week just in time to watch the latest Orphan Black episode.

      • I was in the middle of a The Good Wife binge watch and was getting to the more recent episodes where something happens I did not necessarily want to experience and was happy to put off for a bit, so I watched OITNB in two sittings. 🙂

    • julnyes

      Welcome to the club 🙂 I watched it in three days – I have no self control!

  • Read Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston if you want to see the theme of hair signaling notable changes in African American female characters. You know Jenji has read the book. Speaking of books, what a plethora of additions for my summer time reading list! These gals read some great stuff.

  • Annmarie Kane

    I love this show. I really do but this has been driving me CRAZY: Is it common for a felon to be in charge of driving a transport van OFF CAMPUS to be left alone unsupervised for HOURS with access to the van? Fischer slaps the cuffs on Rosa to escort her to her chemo treatment and Rosa is guarded at every turn in the hospital; but Lorna has the freedom to drive upstate and back undetected? They have all this protocall for guarding prisoners in a hospital and don’t even take the keys away from Lorna? They don’t check the mileage or gas tank upon return either? WTF?!

    • I wondered about that too, unless it catches up with her later.

    • butterflysunita

      I was also surprised by that scene. But I saw this discussed on another forum and one poster–who had been in minimum security prison–said it does happen. I assume that Lorna has had a record of perfect behavior since being in prison, which is why she was trusted to be the driver.

      • Annmarie Kane

        Thanks butterflysunita.
        It bothered me so much I searched for forums to find an answer to no avail. I buy that perfect behavior may entitle an inmate to drive a transport van off campus. Leaving the inmate unguarded and unchecked for HOURS off campus with the van and the keys? I dunno…

        • butterflysunita

          I got the impression that Morello was supposed to be checked on periodically–in another scene, they show a guard checking on her in the hospital garage. The reason she wasn’t checked on that day is because Susan Fischer was the guard and she was more lax than the others.

          • Annmarie Kane

            The male guard who checks on Lorna in the garage also won’t allow Rosa the dignity of being alone with her doctor to discuss her case, citing protocall. Susan Fisher also cites protocall when reluctantly cuffing and guarding Rosa in the hospital. I’m just going to have to believe that Susan Fischer chose to follow protocal with Rosa and not with Lorna so I can enjoy this show and not blame lazy writing 😀

          • butterflysunita

            If Susan Fischer had broken protocol in the hospital with Rosa–not cuffing and guarding her–she could have gotten in trouble because hospital personnel were around and would have noticed. On the other hand, if she decided to trust Lorna and not check on her, no one would notice.

          • ShaoLinKitten

            Also, in a hospital, there are drugs, needles, all sorts of contraband.

            I thought it was weird that Morello would be left alone in a vehicle, not even allowed to go to the bathroom.IRL prison personnel would drive them. How do I know this? One at least three occasions, I was at my orthopedist’s office when state prisoners were brought in to see the doctor. They were driven by an officer. In their bright orange outfits, they were shackled hand and foot and made to stand facing the wall. It was VERY creepy.

    • Take a deep breath. It’s only a television show.

  • Beardslee

    Tom and Lorenzo, are either or both of you English majors? Because your analyses are masterly. You remind me of my English major friends.

    • Fuchsiaforever


  • snarkykitten

    I hope this doesn’t spoil anyone, but Larry getting punched in his stupid fucking face was the second best moment in the show. (The end with Miss Rosa being the best) Seriously, I guess the point is that Piper surrounds herself with assholes, but I do not care about him or Polly at all.

  • Daisy Buchanan

    There is so much I like about this season but Red’s pipeline points to one of the things that bothered me greatly in certain instances – total convenience of detail. I mean, how did she and her son connect where the end of the tunnel was? Even if Red had crawled through it – which I kind of doubt – she would have needed a compass to steer him exactly to it to find on his own.

    • There are some times when we have to put aside logic and possibility and accept this is a TV show and sometimes things happen because they are convenient for the story. 🙂 Think for a minute – if Red had not found it, basically the major storyline for season 2 would be cancelled.

      My other half is seemingly unable to do this and I’m maybe 3 movies of “Oh come on that can’t happen” “this is so unbelievable” “Are you SERIOUS” away from declaring a total movie ban at home forever. I sat with him through Non-Stop the other night and thought how much more I would have enjoyed the movie without all his “That is impossible” commentary. He does not run the commentary track at the cinema and it is so much nicer for me. 🙂

      And yet he’ll sit through The Matrix and Lord of the Rings and all his sci-fi offerings without a word. 🙂 I should totally commentary track those movies for him and see how he likes it.. lol except I won’t sit through 9 hours of LOTR.

      • Daisy Buchanan

        I definitely agree with you in principle – and I’m not sure how far along you are, but there are things later in the season that just lost me. They weren’t even really crucial plot points (I don’t think any of these are spoilers), but details that are so jarringly inaccurate or show poor continuity – the crazy out-of-season weather event, Rosa’s changing accent and ethnicity from youth to old age and the one that really grinds my gears, Sister Ingalls’ throwaway comment about how she supported the Contras in the 1980s. That is such a “no” for so so so many reasons – I was educated by nuns from the fourth grade through high school graduation (early ’90s) and not a single nun, whether liberation theologist or conservative leaning, supported what the American government was doing in Latin America during the 1980s to support right-wing governments and militias against left-leaning Marxists working for the poor and disenfranchised – especially after the assassination of Archbishop Romero and the rape and murder of four American nuns (both by American-trained death squads) in 1980. The memory of those four women (who Jeanne Kirkpatrick and Al Haig explicitly blamed for their own rapes and deaths) hung over every nun I knew.

        Maybe Mad Men spoils me too much, with the pains it goes to in getting history – what happened *and* how people responded to it – accurate.

        By the way, I’m with you! I fell asleep in the theatre during the first Lord of the Rings and have refused to watch the other two! Talk about a genre that does nothing for me, other than bore me to tears 🙂

    • Glory Ten

      THIS IS A SPOILER for people who haven’t gotten past Episode 5. 🙁

      • Daisy Buchanan

        I removed the offending sentence. I didn’t think it was a spoiler because TLo said as much about it without indicating who is on the other end but no offense to you was intended.

  • Ouizee

    Morello: Girl, that’s not your veil.

  • Kristy Sheldon

    I am obsessed with this show and found the book online that is the true story of Piper Kerman (Piper Chapman.) You can read this without worrying about it spoiling any story lines in the show, as it is a very factual account without all of the drama you see on Netflix. While Jenji Kohan does a great job of presenting a picture of the loss of control and power that happens when you find yourself behind bars, the book was written for another purpose entirely. I highly recommend it.

    • I also just read the book – I think most if not all of the story lines in the book have already been seen on the show now though as Kristy says with a lot of added drama.

      Well worth a read. 🙂

    • butterflysunita

      I read the book a few months ago and liked it too. In an interview, Piper Kerman said that she was very careful to describe what happened and the people she met in prison as accurately as she could. None of the characters in the book are composites, and she was making an effort not to fictionalize. I think that’s part of what made the book such an interesting read for me.

  • melanie0866

    Can someone please explain to me exactly how Vee tricked Gloria? Because I don’t get it. She gave up the non-poopy bathroom, and in return all the black girls are on the custodial squad. So?

    • butterflysunita

      She pretended to be afraid of Gloria and give her what she wanted–the better bathroom. But it was all a way of extracting a very important concession–Gloria would move two Latina women from the custodial staff to the kitchen. And Vee would put two of her followers on custodial duty. Once Vee and her group took over the custodial squad, they were able to start their cigarette-making operation in the cleaning supply room–and thereby get the upper hand in the prison.

      • Glory Ten

        This contains a spoiler, please edit it. If you’ve only gotten as far as episode 5, as I have, you don’t know exactly why it’s important for Vee to take over the custodial squad. You can tell, though, that Vee tricked Gloria, because Vee smiles after Gloria leaves the bathroom, and because Red, who knows Vee’s ways, warns Gloria that she had been played.

        • butterflysunita

          So sorry! I edited it.

          • Glory Ten

            Thanks so much!

      • melanie0866

        Thank you!

  • I don’t get the Piper boredom/dislike. She was our introduction to this world and I enjoyed her lens, albeit I enjoyed seeing the rest of the cast fleshed out more and more. I think her storyline suffered with the loss of Alex, as Laura Preppon had amazing chemistry with lots of the cast. Anyway: won’t spoil anything, but I loved this season. Just finished it and it was crazy, cinematic as hell.

  • Glory Ten

    “Outside Litchfield, Larry and Polly are about to have an OH GOD WHO THE HELL CARES.” So many levels of YAAAAASSSS to this comment! All I ask is for no new reasons to hate Larry, but the reasons keep coming to hate him to the point of apathy.

  • Glory Ten

    I personally think that it’s best for me to stop reading the comments altogether, because as much as I love many of the things you all are saying, I’ve already had two very important plot points spoiled. But before I go, I have to ask – if you’re not sure whether or not some plot point is a spoiler, please err on the side of caution when you post in the comments.

  • ACKtually

    DAMN I wiki’d the list of OITNB characters because I can’t remember names of all of them and I accidentally read what I think is a big spoiler! Caution- don’t make that same dumb mistake!