Mad Men: To Have and To Hold

Posted on April 22, 2013

In the world of Mad Men, some days you’re the ketchup bottle and some days you’re the french fry. And in this era of change and experimentation, it’s a time of great discovery for our characters.

Joan is discovering that no matter what her title or how much money she brings home, she’s going to have to suffer under the impression of others that she didn’t deserve her partnership. Harry is discovering that the Mad+Men+S6E4+5partners are still undervaluing him (and the sea change in advertising he represents) after all these years. Dawn is discovering that her fear in her job is leaving her vulnerable. Don is discovering that serving as someone’s mentor inevitably results in getting bitten. Megan is discovering that Don will never give her the support in her career she expects and in fact, is going to get more emotionally abusive the better she does at it. And yet, despite all the backbiting and disappointments, LOVE (or the 1968 version of it) is in the air.

Since we know just how much her many fans were salivating for a Joan storyline, let’s deal with her first. It’s funny, because we watched a bunch of random 1st and 2nd-season episodes this weekend just to get a feel of  how much each character has changed over time. Every character but Don has, by the way; many of them radically. Anyway, we noted just how much of a bitch and Queen Bee Joan was back in the early days of the show. And we don’t mean “bitch” in the sense that she was strong and ambitious and difficult to deal with; we mean she actively went out of her way to hurt or humiliate other people and enjoyed it while demonstrating no ambition at all except to be seen as the prettiest in the room at all times. The famous “basket of kisses” scene really stood out to us as an example of how far she’s come in 8 years. In the scene, she was either condescending or outright nasty to every woman she interacted with, while literally bending over to show her ass to the men watching. And the only man in the room she spoke to got treated to a nasty crack about his alcoholism even though, unlike every other man in the scene, his behavior was utterly benign. Does that even sound like the Joan of 1968? To be perfectly honest, when we had that realization of how much she changed, we began to wonder if it was all that realistic; especially in a show with at least one of its themes being about how bad people are at the act of change.

So at first, we found her behavior toward Scarlet and Dawn to be a little left-field, but as it all unfolded, we realized we were getting a glimpse of the old Joan; the one that never really went away, even after the disappointments and mistakes that softened (and focused) her in the ensuing years. We have a feeling that, like everything  Mad Men-related (right down to buttons and ashtrays), this will be highly debated, but we didn’t think Joan really acted properly toward either of the secretaries. A time-clock violation is certainly punishable, but since SCDP allows pot-smoking and sleeping in the office (among so many other things), and so many of its employees seem to be able to come and go as they please, we thought she was on pretty shaky ground to be so furious and she had practically no standing at all to fire anyone on the spot. Scarlet and Dawn have never been portrayed as anything but excellent secretaries. Not to mention just how unprofessional – and cruel –  it was to yell “Scarlet, you’re fired” across a public space, in front of other employees. No, this was not Joan at her best; not by a long shot. And considering she used to leave the office in the middle of the day to meet Roger in hotel rooms – and left in the middle of the day last season to go hop in a Jaguar with Don and get drunk – it leaves her something of a hypocrite. But at least in that regard, she was in good company. Hypocrisy was in the air this episode almost as much as free love was.

At the same time, she’s dealing with a pissed-off Harry who, being Harry, can’t express a thought without offending someone; usually a woman. Again, this will be debated wildly, but we think Harry had a point about everything except how Joan got her partnership. He really is terribly undervalued and he really should have a partnership by now; especially with Lane out of the picture. But because he’s an asshole, he essentially had to go and call Joan a whore in front of everyone. This, by the way, was why we had such a hard time believing last season that Joan would sleep with a client to get a partnership; not because she was morally opposed to it, but because everyone in the office would know and she’d be exposed in a way she never had beforMad+Men+S6E4+1e. Remember, people at SCDP still gossip about whether or not she and Roger had an affair, 14 years after it started; 2 years after it produced a baby. She’s good about keeping her cards close to her chest. The money and security must have been enough to overcome the anxiety about it, but now she’s dealing with something she must have known was coming. And while she deals with Harry quite well face-to-face (for the most part), it’s clear that her ongoing low-level humiliation and utterly illusory power is causing her old Queen Bee habits to resurface.

At home, a visiting friend thinks her life from the outside looks far, far more exciting and rewarding than Joan does, inadvertently uttering a line that could have been a mantra for second-wave feminism: “I don’t care how they make you feel, it’s right in front of you for the taking.” After indulging in a little bit of free love and downtown-hip partying at the trendy Electric Circus (a scene that ranks with Roger’s acid trip as something so perfectly sixties but utterly incongruous with your view of the character), it seems to us that Joan moved forward by surrendering any vestiges of her old job as a secretary, passing them on to Dawn and giving her something of an unexpected promotion. This perpetuates a cycle of women on Mad Men getting unexpected promotions due to office and personal politics that happen independent of them. Peggy got her promotion because Don wanted to humiliate Pete. Joan got hers because Lane knew the company couldn’t pay her the 50,000 dollars the partners agreed upon and would find out he embezzled. Megan got hers because Don was running from the darkness and impulsively decided to marry her and give her whatever she wanted. And now Dawn makes a small step forward because Joan got called a whore in front of the other partners. Echoing Peggy, Dawn decides to make Joan her mentor, telling her that it would be better to have every other secretary hate her if it meant she had Joan’s respect. We are digging this outcome. A Joan/Dawn relationship seems so unlikely (especially since the old, bitchy Joan wasn’t exactly enlightened when talking to black girls; just ask Paul Kinsey’s old girlfriend), but this has real possibilities. If Joan is shedding the last of her secretarial self and grabbing the executive title by the reins, then it’s exciting to know she’ll have at least one person looking up to her while she suffers slings and arrows from assholes like Harry. And she will; for decades to come.

Don is a much, much bigger hypocrite than Joan, though. He thinks cheating only “counts” if no one knows about it; which is why he can stand on his principles and loftily declare that SCDP will not go after Heinz Ketchup and then sneak into an office with Stan to get high and work on a Ketchup pitch. It’s also why he can call his wife a whore for play-acting at adultery and immediately go home and actually commit it. “You kiss people for money. Do you know what kind of people do that?” And in our imaginary Mad Men script, where characters always say the perfect thing, she would have replied “You LIE to people for money, you asshole.”

This marriage is over. When Don calls his wife a whore, it means it’s the end. We just hope it doesn’t take as long to dissolve as the previous Draper marriage. It’s all a question now of whether Megan feels she can put up with the emotional abuse or whether she finds out about the affair with Sylvia, which seems increasingly likely. After calling Megan a prostitute, Don rather heavy-handedly puts a penny in Sylvia’s hand and mimics exactly the seduction scene portrayed on the soap opera set, pushing her back on the bed, pathetically attempting to duplicate and insert himself into a scene that wasn’t about him and making it all about him. Eerily, and creepily, it also mimics the way he saw his Uncle Max bed his mother. He’s shocked to find out that Sylvia prays for him. After years of Mad+Men+S6E4+4this, we’re no longer enamored with any of Don’s mistresses and tend to roll our eyes at these highly meaningful scenes with women he will almost certainly discard once they get too close to figuring him out. We suppose there’s some hidden depth revealed by Sylvia’s kindness and empathy, but to our eyes, it just looked like another form of hypocrisy; someone who refuses to examine their own actions while passing judgment on someone else’s.

Peggy, for her part, is more Don Draper than Don Draper himself now. Let’s talk about those pitches for a second. Both Don’s and Peggy’s were very, very good pitches. But more than just being good, they laid out their entire professional history to us, and not just because Peggy slyly nicked Don’s “change the conversation” line (to his regret and simultaneous admiration). First, both ads were extremely similar; a blown up image on a white background with simple, declarative black copy; very much in the iconic style of sixties advertising, which, at its best, demonstrated a perfect blend of text and picture in as economical a manner as possible. But Peggy inadvertently gave the client exactly what they thought was missing from Don’s: a bottle and the word ketchup. In that respect, you could say Peggy’s pitch was “better” than Don’s in that it anticipated the client’s needs and served them. On the other hand, you could argue (as we do) that Don’s was actually a much more sophisticated ad that worked by withholding information and letting the imagination of the viewer fill it in. Don knows that letting people come to their own conclusions – or giving them the illusion of such – is a far more powerful tool in advertising than simply telling them what they should think, as Peggy’s does. In many ways, Don’s pitch for Heinz is similar to his Hawaii pitch from a couple of weeks ago; it’s too subtle and sophisticated for the client but it demonstrates that he’s still very good at what he does. It’s just that advertising is as much luck and connections as it is talent; something that was illustrated by neither Peggy or Don winning the account as it went to the much larger J. Walter Thompson agency.

It’ll be interesting to see how Don and Peggy interact going forward. She’s no longer a student or even a former student. She’s a very good competitor, nipping at his heels. And this is the first time he’s really come to that realization. We have a feeling she and Stan are fine. He knows how this business works and flipping her the bird seemed like a friend annoyed with another one rather than a friend ending their friendship.

So that’s where we are now in 1968. Free love and swinging (otherwise known as “cheating”) is in the air. Joan is embracing second-wave feminism and declaring herself an executive, even as she knows she’s going to have to fight for every bit of power she’s owed. Peggy is destined to hurt Don someday by besting him and they both know it. Don is an asshole and a hypocrite. Harry’s still an asshole, no matter how good he is at his job. Megan is going to get very, very hurt soon. Dawn is a good girl trying to do right who just learned the important lesson that she’s got to look out for herself first in this world and she’s going to learn from the master on that front: Joan Holloway Harris.

 

 

[Photo Credit: Jordin Althaus, Michael Yarish/AMC]

    • Meg0GayGuys6

      This is the best part of my Monday.

      I literally gasped when Harry said “my accomplishments were made in broad daylight!”

      • http://www.tumblr.com/tumblelog/lastbutnotleast janinedm

        I keep reading that Harry has a good case, and that may be so, but the TV department nearly died as an infant in its crib during the second season. Who sat around vetting scripts and basically created that function? Oh yeah, it was Joan. I wonder if Faye Miller still works with beans, vinegars and relish (or whatever).

        • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

          She didn’t create the function at all. Harry told her what to do. She turned out to be good at it.

          • http://www.tumblr.com/tumblelog/lastbutnotleast janinedm

            Potato/potahto. He gave her the directions to make sure there wasn’t anything objectionable but she interpreted what that direction meant and trained the next person to do it. If you think that it’s that easy to have directives followed, I’ll just say how nice it must be to run a blog with a fellow grown-up and not work in an office with millenials in it.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            But it wouldn’t have gone very far without Joan. Joan put in a lot of the leg work and Harry took all the credit.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              He never took any credit for her work. Harry asked for help from the secretarial pool, Joan couldn’t spare anyone and offered to jump in. He showed her what to do, she turned out to be very good at it, and then the partners agreed to hire someone full-time for the job. Joan never expressed a desire for the job and no one had a reason to consider her for it. It’s a shame, but it’s not Harry’s fault in any way.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              It’s not Harry’s fault, true, but he was given the credit and the reward for the good work while Joan got a pat on the head. It would be nice if Harry weren’t such an asshole to Joan given that she was the person who helped him actually get his own department and she did it for nothing.

              Joan’s contributions are always ignored because, as she said, she’s just a secretary as far as everyone else is concerned. I hope that changes, and I hope it starts with her making sure everyone knows exactly what she does for SCDP.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              ” It would be nice if Harry weren’t such an asshole to Joan given that she was the person who helped him actually get his own department and she did it for nothing. ”

              But from his perspective, she’s the secretary who once helped out in his department for a couple days and got promoted to partner while he’s the one who spent the ensuing seven years actually running the department and gets no respect, not even the right to have a say in whether his own secretary gets fired or not.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              I know how Harry views it, but I think he’s incorrect. Yes, he’s run the TV department for 7 years, but Joan has been running the office for longer than that, and since Lane died, has been doing all the work of a former partner on top of her other responsibilities. Harry is focusing on his own accomplishments out of context, while ignoring all of the contributions Joan makes in broad daylight because he dismisses them as unimportant secretarial work. I get why he’s mad over Scarlet being fired, and I understand that he feels undervalued and not respected. There’s definitely merit in that. Directing his frustration at Joan, though, is a mistake. She did help him, and however brief that help was, it was critical to his early success, and Joan does a lot for the company. You want to be made partner, you don’t burn bridges with someone so key to getting things done and you certainly don’t forget a favor. In addition to his lack of charm, I think his lack of judgment is exactly the reason why he hasn’t been made partner.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              As we said in the review, he was right about everything but Joan’s partnership.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              I disagree on his deserving a partnership, but yeah. :)

          • filmcricket

            Agreed that she didn’t create the function, but she also went above and beyond what the job description entailed. She was the one who brought in some client (I forget which one) to tell them about the big summer push one of the soaps was doing, and to encourage them to buy up lots of ad space at a lower rate before the network started selling it at a higher rate. It’s something that one can assume Harry never did, since both he and the clients seemed surprised but pleased by the idea.

            • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

              I highly disagree that we can assume that Harry never suggested pushing ads during sweeps. In fact, I think that’s highly unlikely since that’s the point of reading the scripts and Harry knows that – its why he asked for help since he had so many to read.

              I think they acted surprised because Joan was female and hadn’t done it before. Also, because its a good idea. A lot of clients have responded with surprise to Peggy and other members of Don’s staff. That doesn’t mean we assume that Don didn’t or can’t think of ad campaigns on his own.

        • AudreysMom

          Faye Miller. Now there’s a woman I’d like to see return to the story.

        • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

          Harry was vetting the scripts before Joan – Joan was asked to help because Harry was already doing more than one person’s job.

          People seem find it hard to admit that Harry has a point because they may feel that vindicates what Harry did/said. It doesn’t – Mad Men is all about the layers.

      • MK03

        I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I really, REALLY miss the sweet, hapless Harry from earlier seasons. Yes, his petulant little speech had some good points, but he still went out of his way to humiliate Joan in front of everyone else. Fuck him all the same.

        • H2olovngrl

          I know. I was just watching the first two seasons, and the changes to him and Ken just seem so unrealistic. Like they swapped personalities or something. I love this show, but I struggle with what I see as an error on the part of the writers. Nice guy schlubs don’t just turn into assholes that easily. Also, there was a line in one of the season one episodes about how Don actually likes Harry, then he just didn’t. The end. WTF?

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Melissa-Janes/1307910218 Melissa Janes

            I disagree. Especially on Harry.

            Even in the early days, Harry was emasculated and made fun of by his coworkers, under-appreciated for his contributions because he doesn’t have much “cool guy” charm. He also played into sexist sentiments about Joan and Peggy without remorse (cracks about Joan’s overt sexuality and Peggy’s weight respectively) to try and fit in. I think he took his bitterness over always being a little outside and inflated it into a large sense of entitlement that caused this despicable behavior. It got directed at Joan because god forbid a woman he saw as a sex object also outshine him and tell him what to do. It’s one thing if it’s the men, but Joan?

            No, I see it as perfectly reasonable character development for Harry to become this man even as I’m sympathetic to some of his anger and feel he could have also gone the other way and been a better person. Unfortunately, the business world makes more demons than angels.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Harry was trying to put Joan in her place because he wasn’t happy with his place. Don did the same thing to Megan later in the episode. His job isn’t going well and he hates himself for the affair he’s having, so he tried to make her feel as shitty about her success and her sexuality as he feels about his. The two scenes echoed each other.

            • Melissa

              Exactly. Which is perfectly in-line with the path the writers put him on from the beginning and fits in with the growing bitterness both he and Don feel over themselves and the people around them.

            • http://twitter.com/sarahohmygod Sarah Oleksyk

              And Joan projected her anger onto the secretary – someone in the office with less power than she has.

            • H2olovngrl

              This is interesting, and I agree that this is more along the line of what I think the writers are getting at. I personally have to take a leap of faith to get to this conclusion. I totally see the point you (and the writers) are trying to make, though. Your closong comment regarding making more demons than angels, made sense, from a writing perspective.

            • http://howtofaint.tumblr.com/ How to Faint

              I agree. Especially when you add the overt misogyny of the Hollywood machine that he’s been gleefully wallowing in ever since he created the TV gig, it’s unsurprising that he’s gotten to be as bad as he is now.

          • Glammie

            Oh, nice-guy shlubs who get some power can easily turn into assholes. Lack of social skills makes them shlubs, lack of social skills makes them assholes.

            And as an ex media-director, I cry “foul” on the notion that Harry deserves or would get a partnership. He’s not creating the product and he’s not bringing in clients–*those* are the two ad-agency functions that make money. Harry’s job is to take those client budgets and buy media. It’s not a hard job and a lot of people can do it. It’s not near the power center of an agency business–the way MM represents it is a little misleading.

            • greenwich matron

              My first thought was that if he can get a prime-time network show produced, he should not be working for an ad agency.

            • Glammie

              Yeah, and certainly not buying media. If he’s that good, he should be doing accounts. So for that matter, should Joan. MM is great when it comes to creating ads that work, but it’s not an accurate portrayal of ad agencies work as businesses.

            • filmcricket

              THANK you. I get that given how stuck in the past SCDP often is that Harry dragging them into the TV age was vital, and very important to the business. But he’s not sales and he’s not creative. The whole “create a show for Dow” thing was very odd to me. Why is he creating content for the networks? He ought to be matching content produced by the networks with SCDP clients. And, correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t having one brand sponsor a whole show kind of an outdated idea by 1968?

            • BayTampaBay

              Not for “specials” or soap operas.

            • pop_top

              I keep thinking of that episode where Joan worked on the television spots temporarily and how well she did, and how after seeing how well she did, Harry still went ahead and hired a guy to help out. If he’d insisted on keeping Joan in television, at least part of the time, they’d probably have a very different dynamic now and he might have directed his ire at an appropriate target.

          • makeityourself

            The tremendous power of television in the ’60s and its correlating advertising revenues turned Harry from an asshole into a much bigger asshole — very quickly. The speed of his personality change mirrors the change in television’s market reach quite accurately.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        This is the best part of my Monday, too. :) Tom and Lorenzo always have excellent analyses, and I love seeing what everyone else thinks. Best conversation about the show on the internet, IMO.

      • Lauren Hall

        I know! Moments this episode that made me gasp: Harry talking about how Joan got her partnership to the partners, Don running into Peggy (twice!), Don asking Sylvia about what her Catholocism meant (and her reply!). It’s like TLO said in the tractor accident episode: “When there’s drama, it’s turned all the way up to 11″. Damn I love this show.

    • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

      Thoughts:

      Megan is a worse fake actor than Joey Tribbiani…

      Don takes hypocrisy to a new level…I know it shouldn’t shock me how low Don and Pete can sink…but going after that account behind their client’s back and Ken’s is a new low…these two are two peas in a pod…

      Why would Ted and Peggy go hang out with the advertising firm they just pitched against…talk about awkward…I was cringing in this scene…they needed something stronger than what they ordered to pull that off…

      Harry… barging into that meeting did not seem consistent to his character…or like it would do him any favors career-wise…plus why is he sticking up for a secretary that is lying about her work time

      Joan made her bed but I still feel awful for her that no one seems to respect her…

      • SewingSiren

        I think even in today’s world none of her co-workers would respect her .

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          I agree and even though I know she was coerced it was still her call to make. Joan can always make me empathize with her. It’s a credit to the acting. Not sure I think Harry deserves to a be a partner though.

        • formerlyAnon

          I do think that today it would be forgotten sooner by many people – but yes. It is the kind of situation that offends some people’s ethics and fuels others’ misogyny. And there are still plenty of ethics and much misogyny around.

          • Sweetpea176

            I don’t agree that it would be forgotten any faster today. I actually think that in today’s world, Harry or someone else would be suing SCDP or otherwise create a scandal.

            • formerlyAnon

              I don’t know why that hadn’t occurred to me, but you’re probably right.

      • nosniveling

        Harry was enraged that his secretary was fired by someone who, in his eyes, he has little respect for.
        I would expect more trouble on the horizon from him.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          In fairness to Harry, not sure being a partner means firing someone else’s secretary. Not really her job anymore.

          • http://profiles.google.com/dorothymichael Dorothy & Michael n/a

            I believe she is also the office manager, in addition to being a partner. So yes it is her job to fire people. In today’s corporate world she’d probably have to meet with the fired person’s supervisor before firing someone. But that’s not necessarily the case in 1968.

      • Violina23

        Harry’s defense of Scarlett was more about standing up to Joan than loyalty to Scarlett, from how I read it. He was acting on his resentment towards Joan’s position in the company.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Yeah I think Peggy resented too before she left.

        • pollatadana

          Was I the only one who got the impression Harry is sleeping with Scarlett? That sly look to Ken early on in the episode… Scarlett’s too-quick denial of any attachment between them when Harry confronts Joan…

          • TheDivineMissAnn

            Yeah, I thought the same thing.

          • Scimommy

            I am 99.999% sure they are having an affair. I thought everything was pointing to it.

            • decormaven

              Yes! Remember, Scarlett tells Ken that “Harry has great ideas” when Harry is beginning to formulate the Broadway Joe TV special for Dow.

          • Violaine

            Scarlett: “We’re not attached” Harry: “We ARE attached!”

            • beejeez

              Yeah, I think the ambiguity is intentional. Harry’d have a motive to blow up either way.

          • MK03

            It feels like they’ve given Harry a distinct misogynistic streak since his job started taking off. He seems very much of the “use ‘em and lose ‘em” school.

          • Joni

            I got the Harry is sleeping with Scarlett vibe too.

          • Nicholas

            Their body language was incredibly informal. And we know Harry doesn’t exactly respect women.

      • MissAnnieRN

        This is an office where partners smoke pot and secretaries leave on lunch breaks to have affairs in hotel rooms. Scarlett’s time clock issue is a fairly benign transgression in the context of all the bad behavior in tht office. Even dawn admits that the taking out the trash is accompanied by a soundtrack of booze bottles clanging. So Harry’s defense of her seems legit to me.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          True, I just thought to yell at the partners over a secretary seemed overzealous to me

        • TheDivineMissAnn

          Well, I wonder if the secretaries and the secretarial pool (remember THAT phrase?) do not have as much leeway as the creative team, account team, etc. in terms of taking long lunches and the like. They would be pretty much kept in line, I would think. Of course, being a secretary to one of the Managers would put them on higher footing than the secretarial pool staff, but I don’t know to what extent the “look the other way” privileges went.

          From the beginning of the series, I got the impression Joan was the office manager. Maybe I am wrong on that. If not the office manager, then the go to person that everyone (including the partners) went to in order to get something done. I felt she held dominion over the other secretaries and over how the office was run.

          The choice Joan made which led to her becoming a partner was a calculated risk she chose to take. And a smart one, I think. She knew her marriage was over and she was going to be a single mother. She was looking hard at her future. She traded her reputation for job security.

          • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

            I think…she was the office manager as well. Now I am not sure what her current role is…

            • Frank_821

              from the look of it, she took over Lane’s role as financial officer. ironically she was most qualified to do that

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              you are probably right. It seems like she is still handling her old role as well too

            • sarahjane1912

              But she could have done Harry’s job blindfolded as well. Remember how she was roped into to help [and she absolutely SHONE at it] and then they kicked her off after just a short stint? I really felt sorry for her then, esp. when she obviously has the brains to do ‘real’ work, not just time cards and secretary bullying.

            • Aurumgirl

              Hmm. There may be something to that. What if Harry could be easily replaced by Joan, and Joan took his job and ran with it, elevating the television department to a higher status while actually putting SCDP on the map with television as well? God knows no one would stop Harry from leaving, if it’s what he chose to do; and no one would bemoan his loss if he could be replaced so quickly.

          • http://twitter.com/1carmelita 1carmelita

            I suspect that part of Joan’s reaction to Scarlett was an unconscious throwback to a time where she felt she was in charge and had respect—before she became a partner and was in charge of the office secretaries. She could order them around with impunity because they were totally under her supervision, and relatively expendable. Times have changed and I think that outburst was due in large part to her frustration in her current situation.

          • Sweetbetty

            Well, I wonder if the secretaries and the secretarial pool (remember
            THAT phrase?) do not have as much leeway as the creative team, account
            team, etc. in terms of taking long lunches and the like.
            ***********************************
            I’m sure no one besides the secretaries punch a time clock. I was surprised to even find out that they did, what with all the coming and going that goes on in that office during work hours.

            • formerlyAnon

              If no one else keeps prescribed hours it’s even more important that the secretaries do. SOME body has to be there to answer the phones, take deliveries, generally keep the wheels of the train in motion. And to cover for their absent bosses.

        • Krafty_L

          My take on it was that Joan was angrier about Scarlett trying to warn Dawn behind her back. Turning around and seeing Scarlett gesturing to Dawn from the staircase set her off. I think Joan would have overlooked the incident if not for that.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1050504936 Therese Bohn

            That’s what I thought too.

      • Sobaika

        Harry’s always been a Grade A douche – remember his creepy salivating over Megan’s Zou Bisou Bisou?

        I think people take the actor’s sweet smile and the carousel scene from season 1 and have a slightly less gross version of Harry Crane in mind.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Isn’t he also the one that had Christmas sex with cult girl in his office does anyone remember?

          • Celandine1

            Harry had sex with a secretary after an office party back in season 2, which I think almost broke up his marriage. More recently he had sex with the cult girl who was trying to stop him from helping Paul, a former SC copywriter. Harry is a douche but I am always surprised he has the ‘balls’ to cheat on his wife.

            • MK03

              To be fair, sleeping with Hildy in season 1 was more of a drunken misstep than a planned affair. And he really regretted it. Sadly, that Harry is long gone…

            • H2olovngrl

              Exactly.

            • Danielle

              Harry running out of the conference room crying during the Kodak Carousel presentation was one of my favorite and most moving moments of Season 1.

          • decormaven

            Yes, Harry had sex with Paul’s Hare Krishna cohort, Lakshmi in “Christmas Waltz.”

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              at his office…and he is dissing Joan

        • P M

          I have a feeling that Harry was always at least a bit creepy. But when you’re in a junior position in a company, you keep your head down and try not to let too many opinions show, no? But, as time goes on, and if one moves up, the cracks show…
          And yes, the carousel scene has shaped a lot of people’s vision of who Harry is.

        • H2olovngrl

          Rewatch the first two seasons. Complete character change.

          • SassieCassy

            he barely exists in the first two seasons except as a sexist soundingboard for pete and the carousel scene

            • H2olovngrl

              I am right in the middle of season two of a complete rewatch. I finished season one two days ago.His character, as defined in the first two seasons , is still very sharp and fresh to me. He was more than a sounding board. It is actually quite disconcerting to see who he has become in the last few seasons, and compare it with who he once was. Very strange. In fact, if I hadn’t just watched season one, I may not have been familiar enough with his first season character to even comment on it at all. Try watching season one and season six simultaneously, it is crazy how much things have actually changed.

            • Sweetpea176

              I’m also rewatching and have just started season 3. I agree that Harry has changed quite a bit. I was also taken aback a little bit at how nasty Joan was, which I had kind of forgotten.

            • http://www.deborahwiles.com/ GoodSally

              Hollywood, and a little taste of supposed power. I think his scene crashing the board meeting was entirely earned.

            • Sweetbetty

              My memory is so bad; what happened with Harry in the carousel scene?

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1050504936 Therese Bohn

              Harry got verklempt after Don’s presentation of the Kodak Carousel slide projector scene — running from the room in tears. He was probably still reeling from having drunkenly cheated on his wife with Hildy, and felt regret. He has changed a LOT since then. In this episode, we hear about his wife and now three kids (inc. twins) and yet we can see how he’s had a lot less respect for Jennifer in the past couple of seasons. Remember in the S5 premiere when he was delighted that Jennifer did not make it to the Draper party, and how he was so enamored of Megan’s ‘sex kitten’ performance and bragging to Stan about how he’d imagine screwing her? He’s really turned into a douche, and I give props to Rich Sommer for changing Harry from a character you felt sorry for to one you love to hate.

            • Sweetbetty

              Thank you, Therese; it’s coming back to me now.

            • lulubella

              Ha, I live how you use a little Yiddish, since Harry, influenced by Hollywood, is prone to throw out some Yiddish bon mots, much to the confusion of his SCDP colleagues. I think he’s trying to mimic some of the drama he sees in Hollywood studios and restaurants, thinking that’s how you push your weight around, but he can’t pull it off, or goes about it incorrectly.

            • Danielle

              It wasn’t just that he regretted cheating on her, he was sleeping in his office at that point because his wife wouldn’t let him back in their home. It really hit him then that his marriage and whole life were falling apart and he needed to fix it.

      • LC3203

        Hanging out with the competition happens ALL the time. I’ve been on huge pitches that ended at a bar and ended up seeing every other agency on the RFP list at the same bar.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          I know:) But it just seemed so awkward…

      • CozyCat

        I got the impression that the bar where Ted and Peggy met the SCD(P?) crew was a common ad agency watering hole. Everyone naturally gravitated to the same place to nurse their wounds.

        Harry may have made a bad move blowing his temper and insulting Joan in public–but it did more than double his salary for the year. My guess is that he’s right: he will end up moving to another agency. As Peggy learned, that’s often the only way you can move up when you feel that you’re under valued.

        Joan, on the other hand, is stuck where she is. But she was smart to start re thinking her role. And she learned that using your power to create a loyal underling (Dawn) is a much better strategy than using it to hurt someone.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Interesting that you mention Harry moving on, I have the same feeling about Ken.

          • CozyCat

            The pact with Peggy!

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              Long live the pact:) Sorry but I miss these two together and he has been feeling awfully disgruntled. Plus he will never move up with Pete as a partner and I think he is too ethical for that place.

            • Girl_With_a_Pearl

              Ken had the opportunity to become a partner when he gave SDCP his father-in-law’s business. But, he does seem off his game this season, so you’re right, he may leave too. Hopefully to work with Peggy.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              They all seem off their game this season. Ken passed it up because he saw what happened with Joan and now that they straight up lied to his face…I think he is going to bounce. The dodgiest part is that he wanted to go after the Heinz ketchup account but Don gave him that tired line about dancing with the one who brought you to scheme behind his back with Pete and lose both accounts. This season seems to be about how terrible Don and Pete will be. I am thinking Rizzo, Olsen, and Cosgrove advertising has a ring to it.

            • 3hares

              I don’t think starting a new agency is as easy as that.

              Ken would more likely just move to a different agency if he wanted to leave, but I’d think that would be difficult with his father in law at SCDP.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              I was totally kidding.

            • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

              What I couldn’t figure out was why Stan was so put out with Peggy. It was no secret Heinz was taking meetings. Chaough knew about it before Peggy said anything about Stan, all he did was say to go after it because SCDP was. Stan betrayed the company by even opening his mouth, but all we have ever seen from him was an attitude of “what’s the point of all this? We’re slaves for baked beans?” He never cared on that level before, and he was the one in the wrong, not Peggy. I was interested in their contrasting suits at opposite ends of the bar. He’s wearing her former power color, mustard (not ketchup-colored!), directly opposite to her royal blue jacket. It just seemed like a huge shift in his personality. He knows full well she’s a cutthroat person and is a boss-pleaser. I hope the experience makes her stop stabbing people in the back, and instead nabbing her former allies from her former company to create real rivalry and hurt against Don in this chess game. Stan’s a rook. Don’s the King.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              I never can read Stan and the beard is making it harder. I am not sure if he was kidding or actually mad. But I agree if he was mad, he has no right to be. I too don’t think Stan is a slave for work like Peggy is either. Let’s hope the lesson for both of them is keep work stuff to amusing anecdotes and nothing private.

            • http://twitter.com/ZoeyCharles7 Zoey

              I think that was a one of those I’m sort of joking but still sort of pissed things that happens between friends. They will be okay. Stan knew he was wrong, but he didn’t think Peggy would take advantage of that. Look at Peggy’s face. She was smirking like she was enjoying being at the same table as the big boys.

            • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

              You know – now that I’ve re-watched, I think you guys are right and this was a red herring. If it’s actually their usual goofiness, it makes more sense. I couldn’t read his face when he walked by because he has that beard. He DID still call her a friend, but now it seems like a “oh, youuu” kind of jab more in keeping with affectionately calling her Shitbird. I bet Stan probably wanted to be kept in mind for other stuff in the future, like another chance to get away from Ginsberg to smoke dope and listen to hippie music in peace, but still wanted to get in a jab at Peggy without giving away that he was the accidental mole. That makes way more sense than being morose and feeling betrayed. He knows he fucked up.

            • sarahjane1912

              Interesting. I didn’t have that take at all. Now, I know I use the phrase ‘perfect shop front’ way too much when talking about MM characters, but I thought of Peggy’s smile as ‘prim’ rather than a smirk. Like wasn’t going to let her guard down in front of her boss [or the SCDP crew]. She would ‘deal with him later’ is how I read that *smile*. Because she was with HER agency, she was going to BE with her agency, if that makes sense. She would sort out the fall-out with Stan later, sure [I hope] but while she was in this little bar, she’d stick with her own kind/employers.

            • Sweetpea176

              I was actually pretty shocked that Don decided to go after Heinz ketchup, after how pissed he was about giving up Mohawk Air to make a play for American Airlines, then not getting American. I guess we’re seeing that Don is changing — for the worse.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              That was the most shocking part of this episode to me especially since he was so adamant last week…apparently he is willing to cheat in all areas of his life

            • 3hares

              One difference between the two is this wasn’t as much of a conflict of interest. American and Mohawk were competing airlines so obviously they couldn’t have the same firm. The Beans guy was just insecure and didn’t like being overshadowed.

        • MaryAtRealityTea

          I actually think he’ll be made partner by the end of the season. I don’t know why…

      • http://twitter.com/SonjaRW Sonja

        I got the distinct impression that Scarlett is Harry’s piece on the side. She is the only secretary at SCDP to call her boss by his first name, and Harry’s outburst in Joan’s office wasn’t just about feeling unappreciated at work. When he got called into Burt’s office to get the commission cheque and Roger mentioned Jennifer and the twins (I was wondering if Harry’s still married, since he seemed to really be trolling for women last season), I think it was Roger and Burt’s way of saying, “Hey, does you wife know about Scarlett? Because we could tell her.”

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          I totally missed the piece on the side deal but a lot of people caught it. I am going to have to go back and watch again. Yes, even Megan called Don, Mr. Draper.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          I missed them being involved, but apparently a lot of people caught it. I need to see it again. You right on the first name. I wouldn’t put that move past Burt or Roger

        • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

          I thought it was more of a, “What would your wife do to you if you quit your job?” since Jennifer isn’t exactly known for putting up with his shit.

        • gokobuta

          I took it as Burt and Roger trying to butter up Harry’s ego by pretending to take an interest in his personal life before dazzling him with a wad of cash. It would have worked on the old Harry (the one who was so happy to be included at SCDP, to be invited to Roger and Jane’s garden party, who was so upset that Ken made so much more than him), but not new Harry, with his sideburns and TV connections and years of success as a dept head under his belt.

          (But I wouldn’t be surprised if Scarlett and Harry *were* having a fling.)

      • crash1212

        As for the Ted and Peggy hanging out – I thought that too last night. Upon reflection though, the pitch was in a hotel and I imaging that was the bar in the hotel – the normal spot for any ad exec to hit after pitching.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Yeah I mean it was awkward in the hallway, then they go down there to hang out…at first, I thought they went to gloat and then I realized they didn’t even get it…the job…so yeah…

          Then Ken comes in and confronts Pete and Don…just awkward…

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        I thought that scene was perfectly on par with Harry. He’s a child, and he acted like a child.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Agreed. I guess I just don’t think that scene anywhere else would equal a raise.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            No, it wouldn’t. I couldn’t believe they gave him a check.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              neither can I

      • http://twitter.com/kerryev kerryev

        I think he’s sticking up for the secretary because he’s sleeping with her, judging by the scene with Ken and the gulty look when asked about his kids.

      • sarahjane1912

        Chortle. Love the Joey Tribbiani observation, but I have to say, the very little ‘soap’ I’ve watched has led me to accept that ALL those types of actors are ‘like that’. I actually, while watching, gave a few snaps to Ms Pare for falling into that ‘style’ of soap-acting delivery. I think she nailed it [as did 'Rafe']. Very funny to watch.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Joey will always be the ultimate fake actor. LOL agreed funny to watch

      • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

        Oh, that sort of thing happens all the time – company rivals often hang out in bars, especially in advertising.

    • http://www.facebook.com/agatha.guilluame.7 Agatha Guilluame

      I always marvel at how quick SCDP is to cut someone a check after they’ve thrown a tantrum. If only it worked like that in real life.

      • Eva_baby

        They were totally appeasing Harry. Yes he brings in the money and he earned that commission. But he is not getting partnership. They couldn’t deny that he was an asset, but they couldn’t totally condone his behavior. It’ll be interesting to see how the Dow thing pans out to see if it gives Harry more leverage or completely blows up in his face.

      • VanessaDK

        I loved seeing Roger and Bert as the “old lions” salving things the way they know how, though bribing Harry may not work as well as it used to.

    • kipper

      Wait.. I thought the finger was aiming at Pete ?!? How would Stan have known he was the tip off to Peggy IF JWT was also in the mix – he did not talk to them…..

      • 3hares

        What would Stan have to give the finger to Pete about in that scene? I think Pete was even looking the other way. Did you mean Ted?

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1050504936 Therese Bohn

        I thought Stan’s finger was to Ted too, hence Peggy’s smile.

    • http://twitter.com/susanpcollier Susan Collier

      Those were two good ketchup ads. Yes, Don’s was more subtle, but Peggy’s was full-on pop art.
      I missed the part where both agencies lost to another unseen competitor.

      • Neil Goldenberg

        Peggy’s was great. Trying to elevate ads to art a la Don doesn’t wash with me. Ads are there to sell things. Period. That’s why they are made, and that’s why they’re bought. Peggy correctly predicted what the buyer wanted.

        • Sobaika

          Don’s out of touch. Remember him going through Ginsberg’s ideas last season? He doesn’t quite have a handle on what the clients want these days and it shows.

          • 3hares

            That could also mean he’s more in touch with the clients, though. What the client wants and what will move the public can be two different things. I thought Don’s ad was more modern.

            • Sobaika

              And yet we haven’t seen Don nail a pitch in seasons. I understand his ads and like them, but from a plot point of view we’re repeatedly shown he’s not in step with what the clients want (Hawaii resort wanted something less heavy, Heinz wanted to see the bottle).

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              Yes I agree, though Don’s ad was great, it wasn’t what the client wanted. This is so unlike the Don of a few seasons ago that pitched Life Cereal completely intoxicated and was rolling slogans off the top of his head like lightning.

        • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

          This ignores the history of 1960s advertising, which is not only looked at as a golden age for the industry, but spawned a series of ad campaigns so iconic that they wound up actually being hung in museums.

          • Neil Goldenberg

            I guess to me the museum argument is a bit of chicken or egg – is it art because of merit or because they worked so well at making us want to buy things? But I digress from the episode….

          • MissAnnieRN

            Not that I have any business discussing art or the history of the 1960’s but Andy Warhol comes to mind. Not only did ads become art, but artists took CPG’s and made them the subjects of art.

          • http://twitter.com/susanpcollier Susan Collier

            And then we get to the ’70s and the ellipses print ad era.
            … Wait for it. Turn the page…

          • Saturnine

            I’d say Don was actually a bit ahead of his time here; advertising that privileged image over copy was on the rise, but not mainstream. I remember my Dad (BBDO, circa 1960s) telling me about fights with the copy team about his wanting to use oversized images, place photos off center, or minimize text in a layout.

        • Violaine

          That’s funny because I had the opposite reaction. I thought Peggy’s was cool-looking and smart and was exactly what the client wanted, but Don’s (with Stan’s photos) made me want to drop everything and go find some fries and ketchup. That great close-up of fries needing ketchup… I’m still craving it!

      • Celandine1

        I thought Ted said they bought Peggy’s ad in the room, so now I am confused too.

        • teensmom99

          I think he meant it felt to them like they bought it-not literally.

        • vandeventer

          No, Ted said they bought JWT’s ad in the room.

          • Sweetpea176

            I’m confused, too. I thought that JWT was the Heinz exec who bought Peggy’s pitch, not another advertising firm.

            • vandeventer

              JWT is one of the country’s biggest ad firms – they were in those days too, and Stan says as much after being informed that Heinz bought JWT’s pitch. Which is why Ted then said something about the small firms fighting over the scraps. Don and Peggy both lost – that’s why both teams were “drowning their sorrows” at the bar.

            • Sweetpea176

              Thanks — didn’t get that. I missed that they were all drowning their sorrows — I thought Ted said something about SCDP drowning their sorrows. Then he said something about J. Walter Thompson, who I thought was a person, since I’ve never heard of that ad agency. I thought the scraps Ted referred to meant sauces and pickles are now up for grabs. I did think Don’s response, “speak for yourself,” didn’t make sense. I’ll have to rewatch that scene to see where I lost the plot.

            • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

              I’m beginning to wonder if PEGGY was the one who tipped off JWT about the meeting…to keep Stan from thinking she just stole from him. Ted tipped off Beans about Ketchup, that’s obvious, but how did JWT know to come to this illicit meeting, too? I’m thinking maybe that was Peggy.

      • alice20c

        I think Don’s was more sophisticated and a better ad out of context. But Peggy’s was better suited to the product and target demographic. For a middle class that swapped 50s highbrow for 60s youth in their aspirations, Don’s comfort zone of elegance has lost some capital. Peggy’s bright, straightforward approach, though less conceptually compelling, translates better to solidly middle class consumers.

      • H2olovngrl

        Guess I missed that part too!

      • H2olovngrl

        They were like two halves of one great ad campaign.

    • DaveUWSNYC

      Turning Sylvia’s cross around to her back at the end…Don’s a vampire. Sucking life from those around him in the attempt to fill his emptiness – and then inevitably moving on – has left such a trail of wrecked relationships and lives.

      • VanessaDK

        So bored with Don’s mistresses and affairs. This is where years of watching interesting women come in and out of his life (and only marrying the least interesting ones) takes its toll on the audience.

        • Girl_With_a_Pearl

          I think the problem for me is that Sylvia, compared to the other mistresses, doesn’t do anything. Rachel was the head of a department store, Midge was an artist and living the life of someone in the beat generation, Faye was a psychologist. Even Betty, who is usually seen at home is interesting because she is interesting in the way her unhappiness is shown (shooting pigeons for example). Once the initial surprise was over with our learning that Don was having an affair with his friend’s wife and someone in his own building (and really, was that really much of a surprise?), the affair is not that interesting. We’re just waiting for the inevitable with Megan and the doctor finding out.

          • fursa_saida

            Yup. This episode was the one where I got frustrated with her because not only is she basically idle, she’s a non-character. She has no existence outside Don (even her family life gets very short shrift), she seems to have no interests or hobbies, she is neither particularly funny nor particularly somber nor particularly anxious or particularly ANYTHING. She is 100% there to illustrate things about Don. I can’t think of a worse female character in all of Mad Men’s history–not because she’s eeeeviiiil or whatever, but because she’s a big nothing.

            • awesomesabrina

              yes! I am a huge non fan of Sylvia.

            • avidreader02

              I agree that Sylvia just seems like a housewife with no much of an outside life. But that’s what I find interesting. When Don was with Betty (the perfect seeming housewife), he went after dynamic women who had interesting careers and lives. Now that he is married to a woman with a (to some) glamourous job he goes for a housewife. He always goes for the polar opposite of the women he is married to.

            • fursa_saida

              Very true! The difference is that not only did the dynamic women have, you know, dynamic personalities, but Betty was (is) also a multi-dimensional character. Sylvia’s a big ol’ Catholic nothing.

            • avidreader02

              You are right… the writers aren’t giving her much. And to be totally honest, I think I like the actress so much I want to feel something (anything!) for Sylvia.

          • MaryAtRealityTea

            I think it’s a sign that even Don is getting bored and lazy with himself. I mean he can’t even be bothered to try anymore. Sylvia is there and readily available. I’m not defending Don, I see it as a sign that he’s getting even more weak and disenfranchised with his life and himself but is unmotivated/feels at a loss for how to be different. He’s playing a part and begging to be caught, as usual, so someone can do the dirty emotional work for him. Yawn.

      • egurl

        More like a trampire…

        • DaveUWSNYC

          Ha. Well said. Remains to be seen if he’s created another one in Peggy. The force is strong with that one.

          • formerlyAnon

            Peggy may or may not be happy with it, but her personal life is not going to be as effed up as Don’s. She just didn’t come to adulthood with the emotional damage he did.

            • tereliz

              I agree about her personal life. Peggy became an adult THROUGH her emotional damage. She didn’t let her mistakes and choices define her or get in the way of what she wanted her life to be like. Since her pregnancy she’s had to come in to her own professionally, sexually, even spiritually, with minimal guidance from her friends and loved ones. She likes people, but she doesn’t share enough of herself to be truly close. She’s observant, but that doesn’t make her any less socially awkward. Better awkward than damaged, like Don.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

              And also women don’t treat men the way men treat women. Men are misogynists because they’re assholes. Women are misandrists in response to legitimate shit that happens to us at the hands of men. I can’t really ever see a women being as bad to man as a man could be to a women. It could potentially happen in 2013, but in 1968? No. Individual relationships are nothing compared to the massively misogynistic patriarchy that was society then and is still society now to a slightly lesser degree.

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              I agree with you re: Women are misandrists in response to legitimate shit that happens to us at the hands of men. What I disagree with is the statement that women could never be as bad to men as vice versa. Way before 1968, there have been women just as damaged and might I say way more evil than their male counterparts. You can check some crime websites for extreme examples and to a lesser degree, there are female narcissists, which would be a counter to Don.

          • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

            I’m not sure. She’s always underestimated in the series – I think they want us to assume that she is just meekly following Ted Chaough just like she did Don Draper, but she’s clearly showing that she has learned from Don’s mistakes. Remember his speech to her about “people losing their way” in “Shut The Door. Have A Seat.?” She’s seen this happen to SCDP too. I don’t think she wants to be that evil and coldhearted. I am not 100% sure that she likes Ted Chaough all that much, though that remains to be seen. As SCDP becomes what they previously hated and “loses their way,” I think Peggy is going to look out for herself and find a more solid place in the workforce.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1050504936 Therese Bohn

        Excellent analogy!

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          ditto,ditto,ditto from one who’s been there, done that, got the t-shirt, saw the movie and read the book.

    • Eva_baby

      I know you will cover this in your Mad style, but I need to say that Megan’s wool trench coat was giving me LIFE!

      I am not one who was enamored of Joan sleeping with Herb. It was such a huge ick moment for me, but I am loving the bigger ripples Weiner is allowing to occur from that pebble in the pond. In the larger context this episode sets up a lot of things for pay off: Joan/Dawn, Dawn’s bigger responsibilities, the fallout for Harry’s because of his hissy fit, Don/Peggy, Peggy/Stan…There so many chips stacked up and I can;t wait to see how he plans to knock them down.

    • Neil Goldenberg

      Great episode. While clearly cringing at Harry’s rant in the board room, and knowing that I am posting on a blog full of unabashed Joan lovers, wasn’t Harry right? Didn’t Joan’s partnership come on the heels of her sleeping with Jaguar? Isn’t Harry’s work unappreciated? Love Joan or not, she leveraged her sex appeal into a promotion – one we know she deserved for other reasons – but sleeping with Mr. Jaguar certainly clinched it, and that’s a legacy she has to deal with.

      • Violina23

        I thought Harry had a good point, but I’m not sure throwing the public tantrum was the way to express it, particularly with Joan in the room.

        • Neil Goldenberg

          Agreed completely

        • Angela Langdale

          My favorite line this episode was delivered by Bobby Morse (Bert) replying to Harry’s “You used to be me” with “I was never like you” with a head tilt and a smile!

          • teensmom99

            I’m a roger fan so I loved (can’t remember it exactly): shall we fire him now. And I have a different take on the Joan/Scarlett thing. What Scarlett did was wrong and then her behavior was so much like “Old Joan,” with simpering included. And Joan wasn’t having it. Like many of the discriminated against who make it, she is trying to impose rules to level the playing field. Of course, the cards are stacked against her and she is easily undermined even when she tries to create rules.

            • Angela Langdale

              Yeah “before he cashes the check”, that was good! Okay, you guys, I want somebody to explain all the kissing last night. Is it just me, or wasn’t there a lot of lip action? Kiss your friend hello, kiss the baby bye, Don and Sylvia kissing in the elevator, let’s play Who’s the Best Kisser? Joan says, “I don’t want to play that game” in the back of the cab, and her friend says, “Cause you know you’ll lose”, kissing in the club, and Megan’s fake kissing for her role, Don’s kissing her goodbye, kissing, kissing, kissing…

            • Melanie

              I’m pretty sure “simpering” has never been in Joan Holloway’s vocabulary.

            • teensmom99

              I may have used the wrong word but I’m not sure what the word was for old style Joan being officious but batting her eyes. I’m of the school that she was not a nice person and something of a Queen Bee but has changed–and I’d even say the changes are believable given all she has been through–and the lack of respect she still has to deal with.

        • UsedtobeEP

          The problem is, if you deserve a partnership, it is never because someone else doesn’t. Harry should know that Joan has nothing to do with him, and it was ungentlemanly of him to even bring her into it.

          • Billie_Dawn

            Absolutely correct. First rule of asking for a promotion: focus on your own positive accomplishments. Getting pissed and trashing coworkers is the absolute worst way to go about things.

          • Violina23

            Agree 100%. Office politics will always exist… People who “play the game” better sometimes get promoted over less flashy people who might deserve it more. Harry had every right to make his case, but he was wholly unprofessional. His best card to play is probably threatening to leave, since the partners clearly don’t like him very much. But he better be ready in case they call his bluff.

          • Prout-prout

            That was such a Harry move. He’s always been like that, only now he has more confidence.

      • Angela_the_Librarian

        I think Harry had a point, but I also think that Joan had been undervalued for awhile. Remember that she played a big role in the formation for SCDP (they wouldn’t have been able to organize the company without her when they covertly left the British company) and had been with the company for over a decade. True, this probably should have merited a management position over an Executive position, but I don’t think it would have been completely improper for Joan to be sitting where she was.

        • VanessaDK

          Joan was a female office manager. She never would have been considered for partner without her negotiation.

          • Frank_821

            actually she was promoted but it didn’t come with any pay increase. It’s more accurate to say Joan has been stuck in the office manager mentality even though she and Lane kept the company functioning between them. even after her promotion she was still having to do the work and tasks she shouldn’t have had to

            • sweetlilvoice

              Sounds like most of my promotions! More work, same pay.

            • filmcricket

              That’s right. She and Peggy were bitching at the end of S4 (still one of my favourite scenes) and she says “Well I was just given a new title, and if they poured champagne it must have been while I was pushing the mail cart.”

            • Lisa_Co

              I think she is making good money. She invited her friend to Le Cirque for dinner. I think it may be closed now, but for decades was a very expensive, exclusive restaurant.

            • Frank_821

              I meant when she got promoted when Lane was still alive, she didn’t get a pay increase. When she got made partner that changed of course. It better have! lol

        • MartyBellerMask

          Joan played a big part in HARRY’S role. Her excelling in the TV dept (in a job they gave to a man who she trained) helped grow the TV dept in the first place. Harry should be kissing Joan’s ass.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            I think that overstates it. Harry came up with the idea of the Television department all on his own and went to the partners with it. He then ran it single-handedly. Joan came in for a couple of days and turned out to be good at the job; possibly even better than Harry is, but the only real part she played in the development of the TV department is that she confirmed that it needed more staff. She wasn’t there long enough to have any other kind of effect.

            • egurl

              But it’s not fair for Harry to castigate Joan for not succeeding “in the daylight” when he himself denied her past “legitimate” opportunity to succeed.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Yes, and we state that throughout the review.

            • filmcricket

              Time passage is never easy to tell on this show, but I think it was for more than a couple of days. Roger came to see Harry and told him that things were running well and the clients were happy. It’s unlikely that Roger would know that after only a couple of days. Harry also wasn’t running the dept single-handed, he had another guy in there with him, although his role was never clear. Also, as I said above, she went beyond what Harry asked her to do in looking out for the clients’ interests.

              That said, when Roger tells Harry to “let the secretaries get back to their work” Harry does say “It’s all been Joan, actually.” It’s Roger who says “Her attention’s divided, let’s get someone else in here.” For all that he respects her ability to organize the office, I think Roger’s the one who has underestimated Joan the most from the beginning.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              The entire episode takes place in the days just before and just after the Drapers’ disastrous dinner party. I could see how her time in the department spanned more than a week maybe, but no longer than that.

        • egurl

          Joan also was instrumental in the beginning of Harry’s real career as the TV/ad guy. Remember when they were working together when that department was first formed? But because she was a woman, she wasn’t given the opportunity succeed “in the daylight”, so to speak.

          • Angela_the_Librarian

            Oh, I had almost forgotten about that (she used to read the scripts to look for product placements, right?) That really takes his douche-baggery to whole new level!

        • Zaftiguana

          Yeah, I see it almost like a make-up call in sports. The refs realize they made a series of unfair calls against a team, so then they throw them a bone with an unfair call in their favor later in the game.

      • Eva_baby

        Not really clear on the timeline, so I apologize if this is wrong, but Joan didn’t just sleep with the Jaguar guy to get a partnership. It is what she leveraged. In a way it was her pay in. My understanding is that the company was on really shaky ground at the time and they really couldn’t afford to lose Jaguar. In a real sense she earned that partnership, albeit in an icky fashion.

        • Neil Goldenberg

          I could be off, but I remember that certainly other partners like Pete went along with it because of the jaguar deal. And yes, she earned it, but I’m not sure it would have happened without that part of the deal.

        • filmcricket

          That’s absolutely correct. It wasn’t just that SCDP needed clients: this was a CAR. In the ad game at the time there was almost nothing better, from the way Mad Men has painted it, anyway. A little start-up like them repping a car, even a crappy one like Jaguar, was a big deal.

          The way it worked was basically this: 1) Herb the Jag dealer tells Pete & Ken they’ll get his vote if Herb gets to sleep with Joan. 2) Pete brings proposition to Joan, who tells him to take a flying leap. 3) Pete tries to sell partners on idea, behind Joan’s back. 4) Pete, Roger & Bert decide $50K is an appropriate gesture for Joan if she’s willing to do this for them. 5) Lane, having already extended SCDP’s credit line to cover his tax bill, tells Joan to ask for a partnership instead. 6) Joan, thinking that all the partners are in favour of her doing this, agrees.

          So it was never Joan saying “I’ll sleep with the guy for a partnership.” It was the partners saying “Sleep with this guy” and Joan saying “Only for a partnership.” It was, as you say, basically her way of buying in. Roger, Bert & Don were already rich from the PPL deal & could buy their partnerships outright. Don covered at least part of Pete’s buy-in as a thank you for ditching North American Aviation. Lane liquidated a bunch of stocks to buy in (& subsequently had to embezzle to cover his tax bill on that liquidation). Joan would never have been able to come up with the scratch to buy her way in on her own, so what she’s saying is “How much is a car account worth to you guys, because to me it’s this.”

      • http://twitter.com/susanpcollier Susan Collier

        Did Harry know about the Jaguar deal or only the partners? I think he was referring to her sleeping with Roger.

        • Aurumgirl

          I actually think Harry doesn’t know about Joan sleeping with anyone for sure. He just assumes she achieved her partnership by sleeping with one of the other partners, because that’s all he thinks she’s capable of. Harry whinges about being undervalued, but he spends a great deal of time undervaluing and underestimating lots of other people.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            Ken knew. It only makes sense that he would have told Harry.

      • Eric Stott

        He’s sort of right, but I think that Harry thinks that Joan slept with one of the partners, not with a client.

        • sweetlilvoice

          I think he thinks that too–probably Roger or Don. I doubt he knows about the Jaguar guy.

      • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

        Harry had a great point that could of been made without slut-shaming Joan

        • beejeez

          You were expecting Harry to be all gentlemanly? Besides, he was still steaming at Joan’s going over his head to can his secretary and possible side-piece.

          • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

            Of course not. I was addressing Neil Goldenberg who was overlooking what Harry did to Joan because Harry has a point. I was also addressing Neil Goldenberg’s subtle slut-shaming as well.

      • egurl

        I think that Joan was never given the opportunity to succeed in the way Harry has. If you remember, Joan initially was working with Harry to help start the TV ad department but was brusquely pushed to the side when Harry hired a man to assist. Sure, sleeping with the Jaguar dealer was a bit much, but Joanie’s always had to use her sex appeal to gain power/status in the work world. That event just serves to amplify that fact and make it more dramatic.

      • kattyatlaw

        She brought Jaguar to SCDP. That is why she got the partnership. The way she did it isn’t why they promoted her.

      • formerlyAnon

        Totally doesn’t matter. Given that elevation in position there were going to be rumors. I’m still waiting for the scene where Peggy realizes a lot of people think she slept with Don to get where she is.

        • Aurumgirl

          That happened in season 4, I think, where Don’s secretary cries at work and resigns after Don sleeps with her following the Christmas party. The secretary, Alison (?) assumes Peggy slept with Don to become a copywriter, and Peggy tells her “your problem is not my problem”.

          • formerlyAnon

            I’d forgotten that. Though I’m still waiting for it to come out that the assumption still follows her – even among people who think well of her. For some reason I imagine Ted, specifically, taking it as a given – not something that’s important, just a fact.

        • CozyCat

          I believe when she gets her own office someone (Pete? Harry?) asks her how she got it, and she replies: “I slept with Don.” (not true, of course: she got it because she had the courage to ask Roger for it. But it shut the boys down, big time.)

      • 3hares

        But what does that have to do with Harry? She saw an opening where she could leverage a partnership and did it. She didn’t steal the partnership Harry was being offered. Him wanting a partnership was fine, but there was no reason to channel it into anger at Joan.

      • Zaftiguana

        I probably qualify as an “unabashed Joan lover” (while be totally aware of her imperfections), but I agree, Harry absolutely has a point. But in how he presented it, the writers also showed why things haven’t gone his way despite his extremely important work for the company. They just really don’t like him, and with good reason. He’s a schmuck he’s hard to take seriously, he just demanded to be made partner while openly insulting an existing partner, which makes him look stupid, etc. It’s not fair, especially considering the way they put up with a weasel like Pete, but they clearly can’t stand Pete either. He just (like Joan) made his case for partnership when they really, really needed him. Sadly for Harry, it might be the fact this is value IS merit-based and rooted in his day-to-day work, rather than a personal relationship or characteristics, that has kept him from moving up despite being an ass.

    • siriuslover

      Awesome recap! I think my favorite part of the episode was Don listening at the door while Peggy used his words. All great teachers have left nuggets for their best students to steal, so it was only a matter of time before he heard Peggy use one of his lines. But now, Don lost baked beans and who knows where the company will be going. I have to say, I was a little surprised at Joan in the club.

    • Sobaika

      Dawn had scenes!!! She had her very own scenes!!

      Dawn for new partner at SCDP. Dawn for the third (fourth?) and final Mrs. Draper. Dawn for the role of Joan Watson.

      • Angela_the_Librarian

        I agree with everything except for being a Mrs. Draper. She deserves better than that!

        • Sobaika

          Fair point. Let’s amend that to Bert Cooper leaving everything he owns to Dawn in a fit of dementia right before passing on. Dawn lives a fabulous and rich life, dropping in at the offices to see how her little company is doing.

          • formerlyAnon

            Okay, that was hilarious.

          • Munchkn

            Maybe Bert leaves everything to Dawn and he completely in his right mind.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          You guys on here are hilarious!

      • http://asskickingadviser.com/ Ass Kicking Adviser

        Dawn, Dawn, Dawn, Dawn (chant with me people) Dawn, Dawn, Dawn….

        • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

          Dawn, Dawn, she’s our… fawn? Unborn Fawn! Dawn, Dawn, the Unborn Fawn!

          • http://twitter.com/chylde chylde

            “precious” unborn fawn

      • CozyCat

        I was really moved by Dawn’s description of what it was like to be the only black person in the “white world”–especially on how she couldn’t even acknowledge the only other black person she encountered.

        I know what it’s like to be the only woman in a work environment, but the level of isolation she described was completely different, and as a white person I can’t evaluate it’s accuracy. Anyone care to comment?

        • MilaXX

          My friends and I jokingly refer to it as being the “chocolate chips in the cookie”. It happens even now.

          • http://twitter.com/chylde chylde

            I work in publishing, and there are about a dozen black men and women who work in the NY office. And we’re talking hundreds of employees.

          • pop_top

            LOL, my friends and I call it pepper specs lost in the salt.

        • formerlyAnon

          The only time my one and only close black female friend came to shutting me down (to her credit she didn’t – that woman has done some heavy lifting in our friendship over the years) was when I asked her if she ever got just *tired* of what it took to be nearly the only black person in our social circle. [The context was that we were in our post-college, settling into marriages and first babies and 'real' jobs mid-to-late twenties & our previously fairly integrated social set started to segregate in an obvious way. It was weird, but it was the late '70s in a southern town. ]

      • fursa_saida

        DAWN FOR GODDESS QUEEN OF NEW YORK

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1582777135 Melanie K. Morgan

      You didn’t talk about the whole “Why don’t you come back to our place?” dinner. I was looking forward to your thoughts on that. I thought Don’s reaction was priceless.

    • MissAnnieRN

      I thought the scenes with Dawn and Nikki were extremely wooden. Whether it was he script or the acting, I’m not sure. I lean towards script because I just kept thinking “this is a scene written by white people for 2 black women.”

      • bxbourgie

        I thought the same… It wasn’t awful for me, but I don’t know.. something about it wasn’t completely authentic. I loved the interaction and was happy Dawn and Nikki were seen having lives outside of work, but I agree with you. Something was a little off about their scenes together.

        • MissAnnieRN

          I guess it’s kind of telling that we are all like “yes! Dawn and Nikki had scenes! (Even if they weren’t authentic.)” ugh. Maybe they can employ some 65 year old black women to write these scenes?

          • bxbourgie

            Right! Someone from the late 60s who actually was a Dawn or a Nikki. Certainly would add more OOMPH to those scenes.

            • P M

              It seemed very meek, very very watered down and yes, it didn’t have that ‘ring of truth’ – it didn’t sound authentic. I got the impression Dawn was still her SCDP-self as opposed to removing the work armour.
              Still, it was a very telling moment, I thought, when she told Nikki about she and the other person passing each other in the Plaza, and not even talking to each other. Hmm…

            • Laylalola

              Life magazine’s first black photographer had joined the staff 20 years earlier, in the late 1940s (SCDP is in the Time Life building, isn’t it? Or was that the earlier firm?). Anyway, I’ll admit, I’ve been somewhat confused by how the show is and has been handling race relations and its black characters.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

              I feel like society was so racist that black people could not have existed in those positions at that time, but not as racist now in that the writers want to acknowledge the civil rights issues while dealing with a very white profession, as well as have more color in the cast, so they bend the history a bit to insert black characters. That’s the impression that I am getting.

            • Glammie

              Ummm, as a survivor of that time period, I can confirm that, yes, there were black secretaries and, in fact, a black middle class. My grade school was integrated right around then (big ugly battle) and I went to school with the son of a black doctor. Where there wasn’t a lot of crossover was where people lived.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

              Ah, ok. I was basing those thoughts on the impression that I had gotten from others regarding the diversity (or in this case, complete lack thereof) on Madison Avenue during that time period.

            • Sobaika

              Not sure you’re right. A few seasons back there’s a scene where Roger and Don joke about BBDO getting a black copywriter – ignoring the fact that historically, the BBDO had already employed George Olden (a pretty respected art/design figure) for some years.

              So it was more that positions were held by at least a certain amount of black Americans, they just likely dealt with a whole lot of shit. SCDP is behind the times in this respect.

            • http://twitter.com/latxcvi LaT

              You’re not wrong about society being racist, but you are wrong about black people (and Asians and Latinos) NOT being in advertising back then. Caroline Robinson Jones, for example, started in the secretarial pool (just like Peggy and Joan) at J. Walter Thompson, and moved through the ranks to become one of the first black female advertising executives. If you’ve ever watched a L’Oreal commercial or read one of their print ads, you’re familiar with her work – she came up with the “Because you’re worth it” tagline. That’s just off the top of my head, with, like, a 10 second Google search. And Jones wasn’t the only one. Matthew Weiner likes people to THINK there were no people of color in advertising because the it means the show’s much-vaunted penchant for cultural accuracy doesn’t have a big gaping hole in it, but that’s simply not true.

            • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

              Oh wow, that’s super interesting! Again, I was basing my thoughts on what I’ve heard from other commenters, but clearly that was incorrect. The more you know!

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              Yes, Clarence Holte, that’s who I was trying to remember in my earlier post.

            • Glammie

              I think SCDP has never been cutting edge in terms of its hiring practices. There were also women copywriters much earlier than Peggy. In that sense, SCDP is supposed to reflect the mainstream in hiring practices instead of the cutting edge.

              And, yeah, to all of those above on the awkwardness of Dawn’s restaurant scenes. They felt written very much from the outside. Weiner and co. need to move past the tokenism.

            • awesomesabrina

              I’ve heard Weiner say he’s not interested in the topic. I see him introducing and writing about these characters rather resentfully, in which case, just don’t have black characters then. The effort doesn’t seem genuine.

            • CozyCat

              Again, I’m not the right person to comment, but…

              I think the problem with the scene was that it verbally said “as a black person I have to be carefull” but it didn’t demonstrate it by showing how Dawn’s real self is different from the “role” she has to play at work. It was the classic dramatic mistake of telling us something rather than showing it.

            • awesomesabrina

              I think this is a really great point. Everyone was rightfully excited to see a Dawn scene outside of the office, but then we didn’t get to see her really be that different than she is in the office. Kinda disappointing. Even though black people were caught up in an “issue” in the late 60s, sometimes they were just like, hanging out being people, you know?

            • http://twitter.com/pennyeager Penny Eager

              It was a really odd couple of scenes, for sure. It would have been a more obvious choice for them to just be hanging out and having Dawn complain about work. Maybe Dawn is going to have a bigger storyline coming up involving her lack of boyfriend/husband – given the story of planning a wedding and not having a date. Mad Men is usually pretty clunky at setting minor characters up for big storylines… I guess we’ll see!

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              what she said

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1017585103 Kanani Fong

              RIght, I just thought for two old friends coming together for a wedding, they were just a bit uptight. Needed a lot more Oopmh!

          • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

            I’m far from 65, but I’ve said when it became evident that the race issue would play a more prominent role, that it should be ME! lol

      • Sobaika

        I haven’t checked out the writers room lately, but I’m 99% sure it was a wholly white staff writing for 2 black women. Take what we can get I suppose.

        • MilaXX

          Mostly white and mostly men

          • hunt3002

            Mostly women. Mad Men has touted that like crazy.

            • Glammie

              Women are cheaper. Weiner has a ton of control and the writing staff has been on the less-experienced side. But they need to mix up the writing staff a bit–most shows do. I’m now wondering what shows have women writers of color.

            • Sobaika

              Almost none. I can think of maybe Grey’s Anatomy, Scandal (same woman), the Mindy Project/The Office (same woman), and How I Met Your Mother.

              MW specifically sought out women writers because he knew he would be exploring women in this world. There’s a reason so many female characters are very well-written on this show.

            • Glammie

              Yeah, Hollywood still has a longgg way to go.

            • MK03

              Donald Glover wrote for 30 Rock for a while. So, y’know, one more reason to love him.

            • MilaXX

              I somehow missed that

      • egurl

        I disagree. The show has a theatrical tone to it, which makes the acting less “real life” and more theatrical. I thought their scenes were interesting and moved Dawn’s story arc forward is a smart way.

        • http://www.tumblr.com/tumblelog/lastbutnotleast janinedm

          I also disagree. It was hilarious hearing an outsider describe the place. Women crying in the bathroom. Men crying in the elevators. It sounds like New Years Day when they empty the trash because of all the bottles. (!!!)

          • beejeez

            This. I was ready to pounce on the first two-black-folks scene in ‘MM’ for Getting It Wrong, and came away impressed.

      • jennsilentcrow

        ugh. I was totally disappointed. Wooden dialogue, wooden acting and just not that interesting conversation. Didnt even seem like MADMEN to me. My feeling is DAWN has not been given a terrific MM ‘character’ to play except ‘sweet black girl’. Think about it, Almost ALL the secondary secretary characters in the show have WAY more specific character development, even if its just a hint through attitude, speech or even specific dress. For such a thought out, highly crafted show….this really bothers me.

        • sweetlilvoice

          Maybe the scenes were awkward because the friendship is supposed to be awkward? Dawn has a job, Nikki is getting married and doesn’t have to work. Dawn feels that her job is more important than planning a wedding for her friend. Is she right? Maybe, after all Nikki can live off her husband’s salary but Dawn will have to find a new job if she gets fired. Were there any black ad agencies at this time?

          • tereliz

            I thought the awkwardness felt forced but purposeful (if not convincingly intentional). These friends seem to have grown apart, one planning her big hurrah before a life of house-wifery, the other who maybe desires independence as much as she undervalues her looks, hence her desperation to keep her job. I think Dawn really is that polite, respectful, thoughtful woman we’ve only seen glimpses of so far, but the scenes with Joan and with Nikki showed how forthright, stubborn and gutsy she can be.

            Joan giving her more responsibilities guarantees that none of the secretaries will try to use her again, a fact I’m sure Joan is more than aware of.

          • Jennifer Coleman

            Black agencies? There were hardly black ads. While I think there was supposed to be a comparison between just starting out Dawn/Nikki and established Joan/her buddy, just because Nikki is getting married does not mean she would be able to not work. A far lower amount of working class women of color stopped or didn’t work when they got married at that time.

            • Addictedtowhitewater

              Your post made me curious (thank you!). This article directly discusses blacks in advertising…http://www.theroot.com/views/other-mad-men

              “Jason Chambers’ 2008 book, Madison Avenue and the Color Line: African Americans in the Advertising Industry, recounts how Madison Avenue’s attention began to pivot toward black consumers shortly after Ebony was launched in 1945. Its editorial focus on African-American upward
              mobility and the acquisition of creature comforts was different from
              that of black newspapers, whose editorial line tended to embrace a
              protest model.

              Chambers examines the rise of what he calls the “Brown Hucksters,”
              the group of African-American marketing and advertising specialists in
              the 1950s who helped deep-pocketed advertisers realize that black
              consumers spent money, too.

              In his book, Chambers recounts the career of Georg Olden,
              an African-American trailblazer in advertising. After the United States
              entered World War II, Olden, the Alabama-born son of a Baptist
              preacher, left college and got a job as an artist for the Office of
              Strategic Services, a precursor to the Central Intelligence Agency. He
              later went to work at CBS and left there in 1960, at the age of 40, to
              pursue a new career in advertising. He signed on as the television art
              group director with BBDO.

              In 1963, much in demand, Olden accepted an offer to move to the
              influential agency McCann Erickson to become vice president and senior
              art director. That same year, he became the first African-American
              designer of a postage stamp, a stylized depiction of a broken chain that
              marked the 100th anniversary of the Emancipation Proclamation. Olden
              went on to win seven Clios (the advertising industry’s equivalent of the
              Oscars) for his work throughout the 1960s. (Icing on the cake: Olden
              himself designed the actual Clio statuette, inspired by a Brancusi sculpture.)”

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              I remember reading about a few AA that were hired during this time and at least one black agency that was created when someone left the majors to start their own. Tom Burrell comes to mind but that’s not who it was, the name escapes me and I can’t find the link for it right now.

            • bd73

              maybe she’s not working class. they didn’t say what the fiance does. maybe he’s a pastor or a doctor.

            • Jennifer Coleman

              But the indicators are not pointing to a fancy wedding. A pastor or doctor’s fiance’s (or daughter’s) wedding would be planned by the family with lots of fanfare, not by her young, secretary best friend. Either the writers are taking a more contemporary view or they are not following up since it’s a small scene, but it isn’t passing my smell test. Just about all of my mother’s friends in the black middle class had jobs in the 1960s, most of the college-educated ones as teachers.

        • MilaXX

          I disagree. Yes a large part of Dawn’s character is “sweet black girl” but I think and hope, we are going to see more than that. “Trailblazer” comes to mine for one. This was a young lady who had enough balls to apply for an ad in what she knew was a white firm. The traiblazing part is riding that train up to 72nd Street everyday now she will be one of the few POC and the only other one holds a position of servitude that call back more to the day when the only POC uptown were maids and shoe shine men. I also think seeing the scenes with Dawn’s girlfriend gives a glimpse into the two worlds she now lives in. I’m interested to see where the character goes now that Joan has become her unofficial mentor.

          • UsedtobeEP

            Possibly this. Because don’t forget, Peggy’s secretary didn’t seem so wooden when she coached Peggy on how to encourage her staff. That took some nerve. I give the writers more credit. I think Dawn was awkward because she feels awkward discussing her work with her her friend. At least, that’s my hope. Her scene with Joan felt better.

            • awesomesabrina

              yeah I thought Peggy’s secretary was one of the few moments on Mad Men that weren’t all “Here is a black person being black! Look, there they are” I thought it was a bit more real. I was disappointed when T&Lo said Peggy just had a black secretary because Don did. (that could well be right though)

        • Sobaika

          She’s given pretty much the exact same character summary Peggy was in her first few episodes – wide-eyed outsider. I have a feeling they’re going somewhere with her, give it time to develop. We only just say her first real scenes.

          I loved her in this episode, but the reason it rang false to me is because while she might be a good girl, she’s not stupid. She should know better than to punch out Scarlet, even if it’s something everyone else does all the time. You don’t just walk into a white world and think you can live by white rules.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            I agree very much with your last point. It struck us as odd that Dawn would be that naive.

            • Nicholas

              “Twice as good.”

            • rottenkitty

              I think that Dawn is pretending to herself and to her friend at the diner that she is just like the other secretaries and they *are* friends because friends help each other out — without this lie, she would have to look at the fact that her “friend” is using her. And using her in a way that could get her fired.

              But just as all the women at SCDP are “othered,” Dawn is “othered” in two ways: by being black and also by being a woman. She would likely have been very aware of this and I imagine telling yourself that the people you work with are your friends would make an isolating situation more bearable.

              And for me at any rate, SCDP is like something out of a King novel. It corrupts anyone who comes in contact with it. (Actually, I think this is part of the more meta side of the series. That consumerism and advertising and the world of lies used to sustain it create a world of madness.) I don’t think Dawn is corrupted, but I think she could be if she stayed there long enough.

              Eventually, everyone who works at SCDP compromises themselves — in ways great and small. And depending on who they are, to greater and lesser destruction of their core selves. Maybe Dawn will escape unscathed — I hope so.

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              ditto, very good insights.

          • MissAnnieRN

            I agree – and there is a real dichotomy between the punch-out decision and the savvy she displays about how she fits into the white world of SCDP in her conversations with Nikki. Does it make her more interesting or does it highlight inconsistency in the writing?

          • Jennifer Coleman

            That conversation seemed to tee up some things, but maybe not enough of them. As MilaXX says below, Dawn is a trailblazer by taking that job, which brings fear at losing it for any reason, random or otherwise, guardedness (it was more a matter of ‘when’ you would be betrayed, not ‘if’) and could also bring an air of arrogance as well as pride. She did make an interesting dig at flashy ‘harlots’ at church, (and given the 1960’s was a time of serious sartorial conservativeness at the average black church, that seem a pretty extreme sentiment) which seems to hint at Dawn’s frustration of not fitting in anywhere, a strong theme of the show. But the reality is that even if Dawn is not comfortable in her social set (and her clothes scream it-that green dress was so ill-fitting to the point of distraction), she is still worlds more comfortable there than at work. Wiener needs to convey that to be more authentic.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            Dawn did it because she was afraid to tell Scarlet no. They may both be secretaries, but the obvious thing here is that Dawn isn’t white and feels like she has to do her best to make everybody happy–even the other secretaries–in order to keep her job.

            • Sobaika

              When she talked about it later she said it was because she and Scarlet were friends. The racial dynamics of her being asked to do it didn’t come up, they weren’t even alluded to.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              When she talked to her friend about how she has to walk on eggshells with everyone at SCDP because she is black? I don’t think she’s under any illusions that any of the other secretaries are going to ask her to go out for drinks with them. They’re not friends.

            • purkoy28

              scarletta asked her to go shopping with her, they are friends. Dawn was doing her friend a solid punching her card,people do that kind of thing all the time, even now a days.

          • MartyBellerMask

            Up to this point I had thought that Scarlet had been promoted and was higher-ranking than Dawn. So it makes sense that she would be intimidated by a higher-up to do that. But apparently Scarlett is still just a secretary?

            • bd73

              how can scarlett outrank dawn when harry doesn’t outrank don? the boss’ power is the secretary’s power.

          • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

            So true.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          I was so annoyed that MW and crew “went there” with the “i can’t find a man” dialogue. I mean really, guys? Is there nothing else in life for them to talk about except that? I know they didn’t have much screen time but I thought that was kinda lazy of the writers.

      • http://profiles.google.com/cakewalkyarns Cakewalk Yarns

        I agree – was this shot on a green screen? Aside from looking awkward in comparison to the rest of the show; I am annoyed whenever a best friend character is inserted for the sole purpose of sounding board. We had to endure this for both Dawn & Joan this week. Is there no other way to let the audience know what these characters are thinking? For me this is an example of writing for a broad audience. Its just as bad as the sitcom character who rushes into the kitchen & delivers a monologue to no one.

        • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

          I think that’s sort of a problem though with having such a large cast. None of the characters really have friends.

      • Nicholas

        In hindsight, it did feel like an absurdist play.

      • MyrtleUrkel

        The Dawn and Nikki scenes to me served the function of the Chorus in a Greek tragedy. Dawn’s comments were those of an outsider and reflect what is clear to viewers, but not necessarily to the other characters: SDCP is kind of a mess with all of the drama, crying, and drinking. Dawn’s interactions with Joan suggests that her character might get fleshed out more, but we’ll see. The scene and the dialogue weren’t completely authentic, but I don’t think they were supposed to be. I love when minor characters on shows break through the facade and say exactly what many viewers are probably thinking like Mrs. Hughes from Downton Abbey, “Lady Mary is an uppity minx and the author of her own misfortune,” and Pam from True Blood, I am so over Sookie and her precious fairy vagina and her unbelievably stupid name.”

        • http://twitter.com/latxcvi LaT

          That line of Pam’s is one of my all-time favorites on that show. I laughed so hard when she first said it and I rewound twice to make sure I’d heard it correctly!

        • http://twitter.com/DarrenNesbitt Darren Nesbitt

          THIS so much!

        • purkoy28

          lol, i loved that someone finally said it, i really hate sookie and her skankyness hiding under summer dresses and cardigans.

        • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

          I loved Dawn describing SCDP as such a tragic mess rather than a glamorous workplace. That, to me, made the scene worthwhile. Her boyfriend trouble called back to Joan’s loneliness. I do hope we get to see more from Dawn.

      • snarkykitten

        I didn’t much care for those scenes either.

      • Zaftiguana

        I think script and maybe directing. Nikki didn’t seem like a real character rather than just a space-saver there to listen and nod, and that’s unusual for this show.

      • Topaz

        Yeah, it felt like “we better do some characterisation for the black woman on the show cos people will want us to, but I’m not really interested in anything she does”

      • MaryAtRealityTea

        Maybe I’m over-reaching, but I thought the woodenness was intentional to emphasize how different their lives had become and how they’ve drifted apart but are still clinging on to an old friendship, but it’s not natural anymore. Kind of like a parallel to Joan and her blonde friend. Or maybe I’m way off base. Whatever the case it was awkward.

      • purkoy28

        a white man writes for a woman, and women write for the men, its like peggy said… im not an airplane either, i can wright for anything”… ….I sure hope they include dawns friends wedding in an episode. They havent shown any wedding ( except rogers daughter) on the show yet. Since they didnt show megan and dons wedding ( i was sad about that) they should show this one : )

    • http://www.facebook.com/sara.swoboda.3 Sara Swoboda

      Can we discuss TED MCGINLEY being a SWINGER???

      • MartyBellerMask

        Ted McGinley’s presence worries me. It really does. I mean, casting was actually PERFECT, but …. Ted McGinley, guys. It’s the beginning of the end,

        • Danielle

          Heh, I said the same thing when I saw him.

        • Sobaika

          MW really likes hiring recognizable faces in smaller roles. It’s an interesting technique.

          • Danielle

            Like Marley Shelton as Joan’s friend? I love her!

        • MissMariRose

          Ha! Ted McGinley has such a reputation as a show killer, that Entertainment Weekly once did an article about it.

          • MartyBellerMask

            Although I guess you can’t *really* kill a show that already has an established expiration date. There’s only one more season after this anyway. Maybe it’s just Weiner messing with us.

        • MilaXX

          only when he joins the cast. He’s okay on guest spots

        • schadenfreudelicious

          The original “jump the shark” actor!, he was perfectly cast though

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659113572 Suzanne Szlaius

          I did a triple take when I saw his name in the credits. I hadn’t recognized him at all in his scenes-I first guessed that it was a ‘crazy credit’-a nod to the online fans and on again/off again grousing about the whole “Jump the Shark” bit. I had for some odd reason thought he had passed away, so I was even more surprised to read today that it was really him. (it still could be a shout-out to “Jumping the Shark” by casting him, IMO)

      • MsALVA

        He was completely unrecognizable. I kept seeing people on twitter mentioning him and I had no idea who they were referring to. I guess because I haven’t seen him since the 80’s, I didn’t recognize him at all.

      • http://twitter.com/susanpcollier Susan Collier

        Wait? That was Flash!!!???? Awesome!

        • MartyBellerMask

          Haha Flash. :) He’ll always be “Stan! Stan! He’s our man!”” to me.

      • MissMariRose

        I didn’t recognize him at all! When I saw the credits, I had to go back and watch that scene again.

      • MilaXX

        At least we don’t have to worry about him being a show killer

      • UsedtobeEP

        OMG, I am so bad at recognizing actors. Wow.

      • lilyvonschtupp

        Where was Ted McGinley?

        • pop_top

          I forgot what his position is in the show that Meagn’s on – head writer or something, but he was part of the couple Megan and Don went to dinner with that tried to swing with them.

    • Angela_the_Librarian

      I really enjoyed this episode. I liked the infusion of humor into the general heaviness of the show (loved the scene with the Drapers and the swingers), and thought it was great to see more of Dawn’s life outside of the office. Her astonishment at the amount of liquor consumed and the general unhappiness of most of the workers takes away some of the sheen of glamor that outsiders might see. She is also the first person to mention Lane’s suicide so far this season.

      I think the dynamic between Don and Peggy is going to get super interesting this season. You could tell that he admired her pitch to Heinz. I think it’s in the cards for him to eventually beg her to come back to SCDP.

      Oh, and did anyone else notice that Sylvia’s outfit at the beginning of the episode mimicked Megan’s maid outfit?

      • Angela Langdale

        Yes, the irony was not lost on me, Don watching Megan, knowing full well what he and Sylvia would be up to in “the maid’s room”…

        • Angela

          Oh, I immediately thought “nun!” when I saw Sylvia at the elevator. But that’s interesting.

      • decormaven

        I like the fact he goes back to Sylvia after witnessing Megan having her screen “tryst” with her screen boss. Don’s just going to renact the whole scene with his own “maid.” He is truly the ultimate actor.

      • Guest

        Sylvia and Megan were both in similar-looking beige outfits, as well.

      • Lisa_Co

        A bit. And Joans’s black outfit was a suit variety on the same theme.

    • MsALVA

      Dawn is to Joan what Peggy was to Don. Joan recognized and is molding her new protege. I like it.

      • CozyCat

        Dawn said exactly the right thing (“it’s fair to the company”) at exactly the moment when Joan was looking to dump her “head secretary” duties.

    • sweetlilvoice

      Thank you gentlemen for the recap. My feelings and emotions are just a mess after last night. Don (damn him!) has sunk to an all time low and I cannot wait for Megan to figure out what is going on. I hope we are all treated to that show down. I loved all the Dawn scenes (the most screen time she’s had) and of course all the Joan scenes. Your post has helped me cement some more stuff in my brain.

      • P M

        I like Dawn and can’t help rooting for her. She seems like a really sweet, smart, possibly ambitious person. I really hope she gets a good storyline this season.

      • UsedtobeEP

        I loathe Don’s character lately. Yuck.

        • Lisa_Co

          So far Don has been boring and predictable.

    • Frank_821

      First Joan and Harry:

      I actually felt some admiration for Harry for showing some backbone. But as you say he was being a asshole. Obviously the tantrum came from him doing something great for the company and not feeling appreciated except by his secretary. But Harry had to be Harry

      In hindsight you are right, Joan should have only verbally reprimanded those 2 secretaries. However bringing up how Joan got her partnership is a perfect example why harry is unlikely to become a partner. They don’t like him as a person and what he brings to the company doesn’t compensate for that enough. He really is a worm. Bert’s reply said it pretty much. Even with the way she got her partnership, the partners value Joan more than they do Harry. And he knows it. Still good for him for sticking up for himself

      Loved the focus on Dawn

      Loved the way those moments with Peggy played out. I found it amazing how she she sat there looking strong and unapolegetc. Yes Stan’s pissed but it looks like he’ll get over it.

      • Eric Stott

        Harry is like Pete- an asshole who’s good at his job. Only difference is that Pete has a smooth public manner.

        • P M

          EXACTLY. And Harry doesn’t appear to have Pete’s talent for wheedling himself out of difficult situations – at work, at least.

        • kattyatlaw

          And Pete demanded his partnership at the exact right time in the exact right way- in a private meeting where they knew they needed him around. He didn’t barge into an open-windowed conference room full of partners and scream at them. The assholeness is why Harry will never be a partner. Could you imagine having him in on partnership decisions? UGH. He’s awful. Pete’s a slimeball but he’s at least smart and savvy.

      • P M

        Still, Stan is sadder but wiser. I wonder how their relationship will change, as it becomes more guarded (from his side, at least)

        • CozyCat

          He’ll tell her off. She’ll remind him that he shouldn’t be gossiping about his employer’s business. He’ll reluctantly agree–and continue to do it because gossiping is so much fun.

          • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

            I hope you’re right. Stan is the most positive character on the show. Maybe he’ll tell her she won the Smuggest Bitch In The World Award for the second year in a row.

    • teensmom99

      I think Megan may leave Don before he leaves her. We’ve seen her have some melt downs, but usually she’s pretty clear about what she deserves. . . Since I never saw Freaks & Geeks, I can’t figure out what the big attraction is. their affar just creeps me out.

      • KateWo

        I really hope Megan leaves Don.

        • teensmom99

          Her Italianate sexy style at the dinner is the way Don’s wives dress before they get rid of him. And I’m hoping that M doesn’t think she needs a new guy to do it.

    • imspinningaround

      Peggy got her promotion because Don wanted to humiliate Pete.

      Can you elaborate on this, fellas? I’m having a hard time remembering the context of Peggy’s promotions.

      • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

        Pete brought in Clearasil as an account and was obnoxiously strutting around Don’s office in front of everyone, bragging about it after Duck gave him a hundred dollar bonus. Don hit upon the idea to assign Peggy to the account because he knew it would piss Pete off. Pete angrily disagreed with the idea and demanded a full-time copywriter for the account, since it was essentially handed to him by his father-in-law. Don called Peggy into his office and promoted her to full-time junior copywriter on the spot. Pete stormed out in anger.

      • http://twitter.com/rmccarthyjames RMJ

        Spoilers: Don gave Peggy Clearasil, and when Pete was all hurr hurr hurr she’s a secretary, Don called her in and promoted her. Then she went and delivered her secret Campbell love child. It was a dramatic episode.

      • decormaven

        Peggy got her entre as official copywriter – not just writing copy on the side of her secretarial duties- when Freddy Rumson wet his pants prior to the Samsonite pitch in “Six Month Leave”. Pete informed Roger and Duck; the next day, Roger, Duck, Pete and Don had a meeting, where Roger fired Freddy. Roger & Don took Freddy out for a final night of dinner & drinks to tell him he’s been discharged from his duties. Don informed Peggy of her new job the day after that. Don was never happy that Pete jumped him, and took the information directly to Roger & Duck. Don even told Roger that Duck should have no say in firing creatives. Roger told Don, “I can fire anyone.” Let’s see if Roger pulls the ultimate card and fires Don. Now THAT would be a Very Special Episode.

        • Celandine1

          Peggy got the copywriter promotion long before that incident. Peggy got Freddy’s accounts and probably a senior position after this event.

          • decormaven

            Yes, I was just coming to clarify this. She was a junior copywriter prior to this, thanks to Clearasil. However, I saw this episode as her true entre into the position, as she gets her own office (even though she had to ask Roger for it in “The Mountain King.”)

      • Danielle

        At the end of Season 1 when Peggy was still Don’s secretary, Pete had landed a client (Clearasil, maybe?) and Don said that Peggy would work on it, knowing that she was inexperienced and that Pete, thinking himself a big shot, would want someone more seasoned. Pete argued that she was just a secretary, and Don immediately opened his door and said, ‘Peggy, you’re now a junior copywriter.’ She may have eventually gotten the promotion, but it would have taken a lot longer if Don didn’t want to piss Pete off.

      • Melissa Brogan

        Prior to the Clearasil account brought in by Pete which spurred Don to promote Peggy, she was a secretary doing copywriting for “ladies accounts” on the side (Belle Jolie lipsticks, the Relaxacisor). Don thought a girl’s perspective would work well for Clearasil and said Peggy should take it. When he saw how much it pissed off Pete, he turned Pete’s excuse around on him: oh, you want a full-time copywriter? Peggy, you’re a junior copywriter now. She moved into a senior position after Freddy pissed himself.

    • anotherintro

      See, I roll my eyes at every Megan scene.

    • LC3203

      I maintain that Don’s is the stronger pitch because of the strong Call to Action. You can’t “Pass the Heinz” without first buying it. And photos of food that need ketchup are behavior inducing. Showing me a bottle of ketchup and telling em it’s the only ketchup is great, but then what? It doesn’t make me hungry, nor does it tell me to do anything. Just sayin’.

      • pepper76

        Peggy did a fantastic job selling it but I agree, Don’s concept was much stronger.

        • teensmom99

          Don’s concept was too similar to Hawaii (though without the suicide!). “We’re not going to show you the key thing that makes this appealing.” It deserved to be shot down.

      • MilaXX

        Don’s ad reminded me of the “Anticipation” ads that Heinz used, but google tells me that didn’t happen for another years in 1979

        • TheDivineMissAnn

          1979?? really – I thought it was earlier than that. I can hear Carly Simon singing!

        • VanessaDK

          I really thought that “Pass the Heinz” was one of their real ad campaigns.

      • gabbilevy

        I was so excited when Don launched into the explanation because I got it. I was like, hey! the ketchup’s missing! But then Peggy showed up with exactly what they were asking for and it was over. Which is too bad, but it wasn’t the first time a client will fail to grasp Don’s advertising brilliance. Say what you will about the man himself, there’s no doubt he’s amazing at his job.

        • http://twitter.com/chylde chylde

          Don’s concept was ahead of its time. We see this sort of advertising today, but for the 60s, not so much.

        • http://www.tumblr.com/tumblelog/lastbutnotleast janinedm

          It goes back to one of the earliest questions of the show. Are they selling products or are they selling advertising?

      • AnotherJulie

        Agree. I’m no expert but great food ads need to show the food.

      • JasmineAM

        I find it hilarious because I am the only person on Earth (or America) that hates ketchup. Don’s pictures were perfect for me.

        • greenwich matron

          I hate ketchup too! I thought Don’s add would make everyone finally realize that french fries are even better without the sugary red goo.

          • awesomesabrina

            mayonnaise? malt vinegar?

            • greenwich matron

              I’m a purist: salt only.

            • Elizabeth Davis

              Barbecue sauce is awesome with fries, although I tend to just go for a bit of added salt.

            • Munchkn

              I like steak sauce myself. 57 and A1 each have their advantages. I like ketchup on veggie burgers or veggiedogs , just not on fries.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          Peggy’s ad for me was more eye catching and catered to what the client wanted but Don’s was more technically perfect in that it encompassed the brand as a whole since Heinz also made (and still makes) mustard, pickles, relish, etc.

    • C. C. Winslow

      I suspected Joan was most furious that Scarlet had come up behind her and was gesturing wildly at Dawn to try to keep her quiet. The firing seemed a reaction to that more than anything.

      (on edit, while continuing to read this fine recap!) And I wondered if Don showed up on the set of the soap opera just to start a fight with Megan to ameliorate some of his guilt about his affair with Sylvia. He could pretend to be righteously angry at her. I sooooo want him to get caught.

      And I wondered if Don’s “Pass the Heinz” pitch might have been intended to placate Beans, by not specifically mentioning the word “ketchup.”

      • MilaXX

        I think part of it was Joan feeling like Scarlett was showing her the proper respect.

      • Spicytomato1

        “And I wondered if Don showed up on the set of the soap opera just to start a fight with Megan to ameliorate some of his guilt about his affair with Sylvia.”

        I was thinking along the same lines. He was horrible to her, no to mention the ultimate hypocrite. I don’t think I’ve ever loathed him as much as I did by the end of last night’s show.

        • Joan Dahlgren

          And just when I thought he’d gotten beyond calling his wives whores when he didn’t call Megan out for wearing a bikini the way he did with Betty nearly five years earlier when she tried to wear one…Don shows us his true colors and does it again. As T&L say it’s only a question of time.

        • Krafty_L

          I thought a lot of his anger at Megan was really displaced anger at Peggy, and the whole Heinz situation. It’s one thing to wish Peggy well as she leave SCDP, it’s another to go up against her to compete for business. Had his pitch won, I doubt he would have even gone to the set of Megan’s show.

          • Spicytomato1

            Very good point.

          • filmcricket

            Someone on the AV Club pointed out that Don essentially had to watch “his girl” make it with another guy twice this episode. Once with Peggy & Heinz, once with Megan & actor dude.

      • http://geekentertainment.tv irinaslutsky

        i thought the same thing about the add. as long as he didn’t say ketchup, the add could still count as a general heinz add, though putting beans on my fries sounds … british?

    • MsALVA

      Another thing… Dawn shocked at the amount of drinking at the office, her conservative wardrobe, her calling the women at the church “floozies” (or something like that)… is she deliberately being uptight to keep her head low at the office, or are they setting her up as some sort of moral compass, the outsider judging the SCDP family? It’s awfully close to a “magical negro” scenario where they serve to show the whites the error of their ways and enlighten them to become better people?

      • Angela Langdale

        No, I think it’s just a reflection of her upbringing. Remember, Peggy was a “good girl” when she first arrived, too!

        • MsALVA

          And that would fit in with my theory that Dawn is the new Peggy.

          • Angela Langdale

            Touche!

          • formerlyAnon

            I hope so. I think that would be intriguing.

      • CozyCat

        She doesn’t disapprove of all the drinking. She correctly views it as a sign of how miserable everyone is.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        I felt that way about Peggy’s “sassy” black secretary last week. She shows up for exactly 30 seconds to teach Peggy a lesson in how to be a better boss? Lord knows Mad Men needs more POC, and Phyllis was fabulous, but come on.

    • AZU403

      This episode was largely about women standing on their own two feet and demanding respect. Harry, boor that he is sometimes, was doing the same.

      • Violaine

        I thought so too – and about the younger cohort being frustrated with how the old guard sees them and getting ready to shake things up.

      • not_Bridget

        Once again, Sunday nights present an embarrassment of TV riches. Sometimes, ideas from quite dissimilar shows blend together.

        I couldn’t help but wonder what Joan could accomplish with a couple of dragons…..

      • Aurumgirl

        Sadly, for Harry, he may get the money he claims to have earned, but he will never have anyone’s respect. He’s not liked by anyone in the office, except maybe his Scarlett.

      • breathlss79

        Harry’s always been treated as a bit of a woman.

      • CarolinLA

        The thing is that Joan wasn’t standing on her feet to get her partnership, she was lying on her back. And she’ll always be looked down on for that even though the partners made the bed for her.

    • http://asskickingadviser.com/ Ass Kicking Adviser

      I made a bet with a friend that Megan and Don would blow up within the next two episodes. I made this bet on Saturday. They better come through for me next week. Seriously, though, what makes me think this is what TLo said last week about Don’s affair being too much like his past affairs. I just don’t think Weiner would rehash redundant behavior unless he was going somewhere with it. Megan doesn’t want a baby and her husband doesn’t support her career. The only thing keeping her tied to Don is the money. Guess Sylvia’s not the only gal in Don’s life he’s paying to sleep with. Maybe last nights episode should have been called, ‘Everyone’s a whore.’ ha! But it sure was nice to see a very subtle and very well-written story about Joan and where her brain is at right now.

      • SonOfSaradoc

        “Maybe last nights episode should have been called, ‘Everyone’s a whore.’ ha!”

        That is the subtitle of pretty much every Mad Men episode. This is about an ad company and a lot of promiscuous people. I mean, really.

    • Eric Stott

      I think there’s going to be something dramatic for Stan this season

      • http://twitter.com/grace_396 Grace Anselmo

        They’ve been spending way more time with him than I would have expected. Less Ginsberg though which is odd. I hope he and Peggy get high together and just be awesome.

        • MK03

          I fully support more Stan and less Ginsberg. I find him very annoying.I just hope he doesn’t shut Peggy out; they are so freakin’ cute and funny together.

    • Laylalola

      I read Scarlet’s behind-Joan’s-back waving at Dawn to be what set Joan off to fire her on the spot, and really, flagrantly lying in public and literally right behind a partner’s back is probably in itself enough to get anyone fired.

      In regard to Dawn, I took Joan’s mini-promotion of her based at least partly in Joan respecting and siding with Dawn’s ability to be honest with her and apologize. I think Joan trusts her, professionally. Seriously. I think she thinks Dawn of at least the two secretaries in question deserves her trust and would be the most capable and deserving of the higher responsibilities.

      • AudreysMom

        I agree. I also wonder if the partners reminding her of civil rights monitoring and the positive PR value of supporting minorities was in her mind and therefore, another decision for the good of the company. I prefer a more relational view of the Joan-Dawn thing and love the idea of Joanie as Dawn’s mentor, but toss out this additional motive.

        • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

          Unfortunately, MM rarely gives viewers what they want so I don’t think we’ll necessarily see Joan developing a mentoring relationship or even being supportive/nice to Dawn.

      • fursa_saida

        I think Dawn’s answering “fair to whom?” with “the company” was what really tipped the balance. Most secretaries–hell, most employees of any rank–wouldn’t think that way; they’d be too busy focusing on themselves and the interpersonal mess. I think Dawn showed Joan with that answer that she has the potential to take on broader responsibility that’s not just focused on Don, because she can think about the whole picture.

        • Prout-prout

          That, as well as her honesty and the way she offered a constructive “punishment” (cut her paycheck to make up for Scarlet’s missed hours). While anybody else would insist on defending themselves, as you said, that showed her sense of responsibility.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        I think Joan gets the position Dawn was in. Dawn felt like she couldn’t say no.

        • Beth513

          ^THIS

      • eruannalle

        Yes, as I just said in a reply to someone else, I got the impression that Joan fires Scarlet for lying to her so blatantly and ridiculously, rather than just for having missed work.

        • bd73

          she didn’t miss work. she robbed the company. leaving and having someone punch you out later – 5 hours later – is theft.

    • nobodylikesmilhouse

      I never loved Joan the way other people do and you explained why…she’s almost always been quite cruel to all the other women in the office.

      I’m glad Dawn got some scenes but was disappointed to see how meek she is. I’ve noticed that all the black characters on this show are very virtuous and pious. I hope they add more depth to her characterization.

      • formerlyAnon

        A black person’s success in a white business environment at that time pretty much required a cast iron solid “front” backed by a striving personality. Not necessarily servile, but polite to a fault. I suspect a lot of people survived emotionally by developing the ability to deliver ironic statements in an entirely sincere and innocent manner.

        The times may have been a-changing, but the change wasn’t there yet and there weren’t yet legal non-discriminatory employment protections, if I recall properly. Not for women, for race, for religion or for the disabled.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          Well said, I agree.

      • AnotherJulie

        Unfortunately Dawn’s demeanor was consistent with the status of black women in a lily-white workplace 40+ yrs ago

        I too had greater hopes for Dawn and haven’t given up on her!

        At least she is worth exploring… I am so bored with most of the female leads… esp. Megan. I want more Scarlet, Caroline, actually the entire secretarial staff – Sally, Trudy, I could go on.

        • nobodylikesmilhouse

          What makes the characters on this show interesting is they all have multi-faceted demeanors. Hollis, Carla, Lane’s old girlfriend and now Dawn, the only black characters on this show who have been in multiple episodes, have all been portrayed very one-dimensionally. Dawn doesn’t have to be miserable to be interesting, but I just hope over this season and next they portray her as more interesting and complex than she’s “supposed” to be. With her interactions with Joan last night, it seems they may be going in that direction.

          • AnotherJulie

            I agree and share your hope. For the longest time I kept hoping Carla would re-appear somewhere… I’m naive and a total optimist but I kept hoping Don would hire her back – although obv. his character wouldn’t recognize her if he fell over her.

            • Laylalola

              Carla was a great character, period.

          • beejeez

            I thought the writers gave Dawn an interesting dimension in her scene with Nikki, when she trashed SCDP for being a histrionic nuthouse. Dawn may or not really be a goody-two-shoes, but at least she’s smart enough to know what’s what.

    • AnotherJulie

      At first was worried but now agree- Peggy and Stan’s friendship will be fine. To them, it’s just business.

      Joan’s consistent bitchiness, self absorption, and overall whoreyness is why she is such a great character. She is like all those women we hate who come to a party single and only talk to everyone’s husbands.

      • http://twitter.com/grace_396 Grace Anselmo

        Oh I hope their friendship is ok. I’ve been shipping them since Joey teased Stan about being in love with her.

      • quitasarah

        I have to disagree with both you and TLo on this one. Stan looked really hurt and betrayed. None of the usual glimmer in his eyes. He knows that the reason Peggy & Ted Choughughugh were there is because he told Peggy the story about the Ketchup & Beans meeting, and now he knows she can’t be trusted.

        I really REALLY hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am…

        • AnotherJulie

          I admit I have done some vacillating on this..

          1- On the one hand, Stan and Peggy are professionals who work for competing agencies. Surely they have competed before. If they are good friends, wouldn’t they both root for each other to succeed?

          2- But if Stan likes Peggy MORE than good friends/ previous co-workers, his betrayal may feel more personal.

          I should have said I HOPE their relationship survives. Plus, I love their phone conversations. :-)

          • greenwich matron

            You know, Stan told Peggy that Heinz ketchup was sniffing around and that SCDP wasn’t going able to go after it. Given that, I think Stan was being fairly peevish.

            If Ted is the one who told the Heinz beans guy about the pitch, then that’s a different story.

            • http://twitter.com/creeple Alice

              I think Stan likes Peggy more than good friends, but his moroseness was more about losing his awesome lair and having to work with Ginzo and not Peggy anymore.

        • Laylalola

          He gave her the finger, which pretty much told her exactly what he thought of that little trick.

          The one saving grace for a relationship between the two MIGHT be the fact that neither of their firms got the campaign.

          • beejeez

            I dunno; I think I’ve exchanged more middle fingers with my friends than with the rest of the world.

    • VanessaDK

      This is officially the end of Joan thinking she is still the office manager. No other partner would have bothered getting involved on that level with a timecard issue among secretaries. The combination of her failure to fire Scarlet, her humiliation in the partners’ meeting, and her friend pointing out that she needs to “carpe diem” makes this a key transition episode for her.

      • Violaine

        I agree and however unpleasant the firing business was, this may free Joan to become a stronger character and a more influential partner. Especially since her friend pointed out what a powerful position she’s in.

      • kattyatlaw

        Here’s hoping she finally gets a real office with a window.

        • formerlyAnon

          Damn straight.

      • http://twitter.com/ZoeyCharles7 Zoey

        I agree. I think Joan realized that she could do what the other partners do. She wasn’t promoting Dawn as much as she was delegating. She doesn’t have to do everything herself. The one thing that is odd, is that Harry has such an attachment to Scarlett. In the past, none of the men have really cared too much about their girl – except for when Jane was sleeping with Roger – and I’m not sure Roger really cared either. Their secretaries were easily replaceable.

        • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

          Harry’s mean remark to Joan in the partners’ meeting hinted that he resents Joan outranking him. Joan took his partnership seat, he’s not going to let her take his secretary.

    • Yolanda13

      TLo Recaps are just the best!

      Every week seems to bring us a new level of douchebaggery from Don Draper. How he disrespected Megan was yet another low for this guy. I hope she leaves him this season. His self-loathing bubbles up on everyone else and she takes the brunt of it. Talk about being the anti-hero.

      Harry standing up for himself was great, but that he had to take Joan down to do so was his downfall. Bert’s retort that Harry was nothing like him sealed Harry’s fate. He might as well go work with Peggy and Ted.

      And how Joan got her partnership will always haunt her.

      Looking forward to this week’s Mad Style.

    • http://twitter.com/grace_396 Grace Anselmo

      Am I the only one who noticed that Ken didn’t even look at Peggy. They used to be pretty close.
      I feel like ken is being set up for failure and it worries me. He is just so establishment now.

      • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

        Well, she did break their pack. Understandably so, but still…

      • Melissa Brogan

        She (mildly) told him off last season before jumping ship to CGC: “You and your stupid pact. Save the fiction for your stories.”

      • Zaftiguana

        I actually wonder if we’re going to see Ken get picked up by a publisher and quit. We know he’s still writing on the sly.

        • 3hares

          He’s already been published. To quit he’d probably need to have a best seller or something.

          • Zaftiguana

            No, I mean “picked up by a publisher” like having a book deal or a contract for multiple pieces, not having one-off stories published in magazines. Not to denigrate having one-offs published in periodicals, it’s great, you just have to do a WHOLE awful lot of it to make it a lucrative job.

            • 3hares

              Right, but I thought he had that because he’s published at least one novel and he was going to put out a short story collection. But basically I think we’re talking about the same thing–that he’d be successful enough as a writer that he could count on money coming in as opposed to only making enough to help on the side.

            • Zaftiguana

              Right!

    • Itsonreserve

      I very much disagree with Harry being “undervalued.” Harry does exactly the job he is paid very well for: doing your job does not mean you earn a partnership after a few years. Each of the existing partners either put in an investment or in Joan’s case, made a deal to get their partnership and Pete, the only one Harry’s age, was only involved because the new firm would need his father-in-law’s business (at the time Ken wasn’t around). Furthermore SCDP certainly has never undervalued the role of TV in the firm that I can see: Harry has a nice office, is given free reign to travel to Hollywood as per last season to schmooze, and they have always done plenty of TV commercial work. Most agencies would have a Harry, he would not be a partner there either, and it would not be hard to replace Harry with someone who could do his job just as well without throwing a hissy fit and denigrating a partner in a meeting he’s not invited to. I don’t think Joan handled Scarlet correctly but I don’t see why I should feel anything for Harry the crybaby.

      And Broadway Joe on Broadway is an incredibly dumb idea in my opinion.

      • KateWo

        Good point, being a partner is a big deal and just because you succeed at work doesn’t mean you get a partnership. I think he believes he deserves it more than Joan, if she wasn’t a partner he may not have made such a big deal.

      • Sobaika

        But isn’t he the only one managing the entire television department? He might not deserve a partnership but he is certainly undervalued.

        • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

          He INVENTED the television department at SC. It’s why he was one of the very few people asked to come to SCDP. In the coming decade, television advertising revenues are going to explode and overtake the industry. He’s extremely valuable to the agency.

          • MartyBellerMask

            Technically, his WIFE invented the television department, right? She put him up to it, becasue she wanted better for her growing family.
            I hope when she finally divorces him she makes a killing.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              I doubt very much that it was her idea. She pushed him to be more ambitious.

            • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

              Additionally, there’s a lot more to inventing than “we should do this!” *fairy dust* “It exists fully formed!”

              Harry put a lot of effort and time into developing something that not only didn’t exist at SC before but was new to the advertising industry as a whole. He worked from the ground up with probably no foundation to work off of.

              As much as the partners dislike Harry, they know this and that’s why they keep him around. Because you can’t really just get another Harry.

            • MartyBellerMask

              Oh he has definitely put the work in. He is valuable NOW. But I still feel that luck got him pretty far and he had to live up to his position, which he has done. But SC didn’t have the foresight to create the job, and they didn’t really think much of it at all, so they gave it to Harry, sure whatever.
              But Jennifer is very much “the woman behind the man.”

            • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

              SC didn’t have the foresight but Harry did. That’s why he’s valuable – then and now. People that can see the future of the industry are important – but they’re rarely treated as such because they are few and far between.

              I don’t think anyone is saying that Jennifer is supportive. But being supportive =/= “woman behind the man.” Betty was supportive of Don’s career. And yet I don’t think anyone would dismiss Don’s achievements in favor of give Betty all the credit.

            • filmcricket

              It was new, but not unheard of. As he said himself, he looked around at other agencies, saw that the role existed, and wondered why SC didn’t have the same thing.

            • http://twitter.com/fashunroadkill Chelle

              I didn’t say it was unheard of.

          • Itsonreserve

            But again, every partner but Joan who made her deal is an investor in SCDP. Why would he deserve a partnership? To quote Don, “That’s what the money is for!”

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              I don’t think he’s asking to be a partner without buying in. That’s pretty much understood.

            • MissAnnieRN

              That’s why I thought it was a much better deal for him to get a bonus essentially equal to his annual salary without being partner. But then I have always been the person who prefers to be a strong cog in the wheel rather than the person in charge….

          • Girl_With_a_Pearl

            Harry always comes off like a doofus even if he did invent the television department. He’s not the only asshole in SCDP, but the other assholes know how to be polite to the partners in meetings (usually).

          • Girl_With_a_Pearl

            BTW, I found it very curious that Harry knew about Joan. I found that very surprising. On the one hand, it’s a small firm and people know each other’s business, but who would have told? Pete was the pimp and in this case, probably would have kept his mouth shut, Layne is sadly no longer with us, Burt and Don wouldn’t have said anything and Roger still has feelings (in his way) for Joan. Joan herself wouldn’t have said anything. So how do you think this secret got out?

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Ken most likely told him. The Jaguar guy asked Pete and Ken to set up a night with Joan in exchange for his support. Later, they land the jaguar account and Joan gets made partner on the same day. He knows what happened.

            • Girl_With_a_Pearl

              Thanks guys!

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              People always find out.

            • lulubella

              I was thinking that Harry may believe she got there by sleeping with Roger. Peggy and Stan mentioned the unconfirmed rumor in another ep. I think Harry is clued out enough that he would not be in that particular loop and is banking on a dominant office suspicion.

          • Eclectic Mayhem

            Was there also an element of him having rolled up to work at the weekend and discovering Joan et all stripping the other company? I seem to remember that they were going to lock him in a cupboard if he didn’t agree to join them… I’m kinda fuzzy though – I don’t rewatch Mad Men.

            • filmcricket

              They invited him there. They hadn’t had time to go talk to him either in his SC office or at home the way they did with Peggy & Pete, but Lane and Bert were expecting Harry when he arrived. Bert did threaten to lock him in the closet, though, you’re right about that.

          • Glammie

            He buys ad space. That’s his job–figuring out where to take the client’s budget. However, he’s not bringing in new clients and (normally) convincing them to spend a particular amount of money–that’s the account executive function and he’s not creating ad copy. So as presented on MM, he may look deserving of a partnership, but at a real agency, people in the media department don’t become partners. (They do get taken out a lot to lunch, though.)

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              They handed him a bonus greater than his yearly salary the second he opened his mouth to complain to them. He is clearly an extremely important employee to them. In a real agency, in 1968, secretaries don’t become partners either. We’re past that point. In fact, it’s part of why Harry flipped out in the first place. From his perspective, they’re handing out partnerships to secretaries while he’s getting ignored. He’s not right, but as we said, he’s got a point.

            • Glammie

              I get that that’s how it’s working in the Mad Men universe. I’m just pointing out why, in the real world as someone’s who’s bought media, someone in Harry’s position would not be made partner. No, a Joan would not either and, for that matter, Lane’s job would not exist at that small of an agency. In both cases, though, story lines were developed to account for the exceptions–i.e. Lane made it possible to spin off a new agency and he was shown at loose ends, not quite certain what he was doing; Joan gave it her all to bring in Jaguar.

              Now, I suppose you can argue that an exception-case is being made for Harry–i.e. he’s working directly with Dow and a network to develop content, but MM is really, really stretching it to make that story line. Clients pretty much set an annual ad budget and then you work with that. Given Matt Weiner’s dedication to certain kinds of versimilitude, the Harry storyline strains credibility.

              Let me put it this way, if Harry walks, will a single client go with him? If Pete, on the other hand, walks, a good third of the accounts will go. If Don walks, a chunk would follow him.

              As for the bonus–I think there would be a bonus–but his yearly salary? The agency’s media fees from the $150,000 buy is 10 percent–so Harry’s bringing in $15,000 to SCDP. That’s presuming, though, that Dow added $150,000 to its budget instead of diverted that amount from some other buy (which is what would actually happen.)

              So as the story’s set, SCDP just paid Harry a bonus worth more than he brought in.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Dow added $150,000 to their ad budget and the $23,500 bonus was SCDP’s commission. Both were stated in the dialogue.

            • Glammie

              Ah, so basically SCDP gave the media commission to Harry. (I’m not going to even pretend that my recall of Mad Men cpmes close to matching yours.) And the commission could be above 10 percent–it would be up to the network and it would make sense they’d kick back a higher percentage in this situation.

          • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

            While we all know how valuable television revenue will become, do you think they (the existing partners) fully recognize this yet?

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              By 1968? Yes.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              Then, it’s interesting that they don’t seem to value Harry enough knowing that what he is doing is going to end up more important.

            • http://www.deborahwiles.com/ GoodSally

              I’d say that paying him a bonus worth a year’s salary shows that they value him highly.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              Right but they probably wouldn’t have if he hadn’t challenged it

            • http://www.deborahwiles.com/ GoodSally

              Agree, and think that’s how it worked/works in business most of the time. Harry was the squeaky wheel and got greased. They realize his worth, but they don’t necessarily want to fork over the bucks for it.

          • reebism

            TLo, respectfully, I think you’re missing out on why Harry’s never been considered for partner: it’s not that Harry’s work isn’t valuable. It’s that his personality is incredibly lacking, especially when he’s dealing with an unexpected situations. Pete’s a slimeball, but Pete can handle the unexpected smoothly. To use words that would never be uttered in SCDP, Harry’s both a schlemiel and a schlimazel. And if he was a partner, he’d embarrass the company, because he’d have to deal with the unexpected.

            Harry’s valuable, sure, because Harry does his job quietly and interfaces downwards with predictable people — and even then, he’s shown alienating potential clients half the time. Harry could be replaced very easily with someone who can do his work equally as well and doesn’t constantly stick his foot into his mouth in public situations. (Alas that Joan can’t just be given his job, given that she would and could do it better.)

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              I agree with part of this. Being a partner is usually more than doing your job well, it involves face time as well. If he’s great at his job, perhaps it’s the other aspect that worries them

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              His job already requires a huge amount of face time, both with clients and with media-buy representatives.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              Then I am at a loss on why he isn’t eligible as well or why they didn’t consider him Those are the only reasons I can think of…unless they just don’t like him.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              They just don’t like him. Except for Ken and Stan, when was the last time you saw anyone at SCDP act like they were happy to talk to Harry?

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              I guess because Pete is just as unlikeable to me…and it didn’t seem to hurt his career climb.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Pete had the advantage of his family name and the leverage of being able to bring several large accounts with him to the new agency.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              Well that puts in better context why Harry is so ticked off. I need to go back and re-watch the older episodes again.

            • Zaftiguana

              Right? Bert Cooper’s borderline sneering response to him in his office was kind of priceless, AND it painted a pretty clear picture of exactly why Harry hasn’t gotten further with the company.

            • 3hares

              Isn’t the only reason one becomes a partner because the others are forced to make them one? Pete isn’t a partner as a reward for simply being great at his job. He’s a partner because when Don came to him to start the company he made that part of the negotiation and won. Just as Lane got it for agreeing to fire everyone. Roger and Burt got it for the money they brought to the table to start the company. Joan got it in exchange for doing something helpful–she offered that as her price and they thought it was worth it.

              Harry’s been stewing about everybody not inviting him to be a partner as if that’s the next natural step to his doing his job well, but nobody else has gotten that either. It’s not awarded on merit alone. The most likely paths to get the leverage for it are creative and accounts.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              I think that entire argument falls apart once you get to Joan. It’s the entire reason why Harry is so angry. “Doing something helpful” is miles away from running a department for seven years, especially when the company has a history of hiring prostitutes for clients in order to “do something helpful” for them.

              And again: he’s the only remaining founding member of SCDP who hasn’t been made partner. Peggy’s the only other founding member, and she went on to a much, much better job. He’s thought so little of by the partners after all this time, that someone else can fire his secretary without consulting him on the same day he finagled a large sum of revenue from a client on his own and single handedly helped smooth over a problem.

              None of this is to say that he acted correctly or that he deserves a partnership. We reiterate what we keep saying: he had a point. When you look at it from his perspective, he had a point.

            • 3hares

              Oh, I understand Harry’s pov completely. I think if Peggy was still there she would probably have the same pov, actually, since we’ve seen her build up the same kind of resentment. They would both have a point.

              It’s just that their point is more about how things *should* be rather than the way things are. So while Harry’s resentment of Joan, specifically, makes sense emotionally from his pov, his argument is still irrelevant. It’s like he’s coming in and saying, “You want to make the former secretary a partner for sleeping with Jaguar and don’t want to make me a partner!” and their response is pretty much, “We didn’t want to make her a partner either, but we really wanted Jaguar and she was the key, so we thought it was worth it.” Joan didn’t get a partnership because she did something helpful, she got it because she found herself in possession of something the firm was willing to pay a partnership to get.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              And Harry feels he is providing the firm with something that demands a bit more respect from them.

              I fail to see how comparing his seven years of hard work to Joan’s sleeping with a client, and noting the disparity in their rewards, makes his argument irrelevant. That IS his argument.

            • 3hares

              I’m saying it’s irrelevant because however logical his argument is (that it makes more sense to reward someone with a partnership for creating a new department and making it successful than it does to reward someone with a partnership for sleeping with Jaguar), they didn’t reward Joan with a partnership because they thought sleeping with the Jaguar guy was awful enough to deserve that kind of reward. They gave it to her because they wanted to Jaguar, and needed Joan to get it, and Joan said she’d only do it for a partnership so they knuckled under. I get that it’s his argument, but he’s arguing for a new way of choosing partners that didn’t apply to any of the other ones.

              Harry making a case for why he should be partner because he’s earned the right to be part of the decision-making for the company makes sense. Arguing that because Joan found herself in a fluke situation which she was able to leverage into a partnership means the partners should have given Harry one too to keep it fair seems less sound. It’s like holding the partners responsible for his personal feelings of humiliation at seeing somebody he thinks of as a secretary promoted over him, when that probably never entered their mind.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              You’re expecting Harry to know all the details of Joan’s partnership and how it was negotiated, which seems more than a little unlikely to us. From his perspective, she slept with a client and they gave her a partnership for it. That’s all he’s likely to know. And from his perspective, that’s far more unprecedented and unfair a route to partnership than the one he’s advocating.

            • 3hares

              That’s true, you’re right. And it’s not that I don’t see the merit in the road to partnership he’s advocating. It’s just that he skipped over advocating it and went straight to calling foul that it wasn’t being followed.

              I guess to me it seemed like Harry’s problem wasn’t that he was out of line for suggesting he should be offered a partnership. It was that he assumed everyone was thinking about what he was thinking about. He did this literally when he burst into the meeting assuming that they’d gathered so Joan could tell them about Harry when they had no idea what he was talking about. Then he moved into his grievances about the partnership and Joan that they also hadn’t thought about since the question of whether or not to bring on a new partner never came up unless they thought they had to pony it up to get something.

            • purkoy28

              he also has to fly coast to coast all the time, thats hard to do every week.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Again, the text does not support this. Roger would not bribe him with several thousand dollars in order to get him to give up his office if he was some easily replaced employee. The senior partners would not have handed him a bonus greater than his yearly salary at the first sign of his displeasure if he was just a schliemel. Harry would have never been one of only 3 people asked to leave SC and come on to the new SCDP, in his case, as head of the television department, if he was merely a potential embarrassment to the company. It’s true that we’ve occasionally seen Harry do some dumb things on his job, but you can say that about every single other character too. I agree that Harry’s an asshole (and said so repeatedly) and I also do not argue that Harry is somehow owed a partnership. All we’ve argued is that he’s clearly valuable to the company and that he has a point.

            • reebism

              You know, I disagree with you on those specific examples of Harry’s value, but you ended up convincing me that Harry’s valuable nevertheless — specifically because he’s doing a lot of work for relatively little pay, and because he’s not been promoted to partner, wherein he would lose what return on the dollar he has.

              At the time that they started SCDP, none of the other people already brought along had any media contacts, and they would have had to start from scratch: a problem for a start-up that was cash-strapped. They were willing to start SCDP without him (through locking him in the supply closet), but it was easier to bring him along. When Roger bribed him to give up his office, SCDP was in a hiring freeze, and Roger was pulling money from his own pocket. The costs of firing Harry and finding a replacement would have been far more costly to SCDP than what Roger did, which was effectively free (in the firm’s view). He’s made less costly by his own inertia.

              Harry is no longer costing the company more than he brings in, as was true during season 2, but he’s also not necessarily so valuable it’s impossible to replace him: it is, however, likely that it would be impossible to pay the same amount as they do for Harry and get the same amount of work for as little reward. I think the selling point in Harry’s favor, ironically, is that it would be too costly to replace him, because to bring in a new guy would mean giving him a higher base salary, probably a partnership, even more bonuses. In that way, Harry is valuable: he produces relatively high benefits for the firm without demanding (until now) higher profits. You can see him being handed a year’s salary as a bonus as acknowledgment that he’s been underpaid until now.

              At this point, it’s still costlier to replace Harry than it is to keep him satisfied, and Roger/Bert, for two, are positive he’s not going to leave if he’s not made partner because he’s a schliemel. But if Harry keeps insisting on being made partner, then he will no longer be bringing in such a high margin of return for such a relatively low cost, and will make it easier for him to be replaced. He’s not “just” a schliemel, but he’s enough of a schliemel that he would lose what value he has as partner.

        • Itsonreserve

          I still can’t say I agree there: he manages the television department, sure, but what does that consist of? He sells ad time appropriately and occasionally, like this episode, creates sponsored content. He doesn’t create any actual advertising and he doesn’t handle the landing and keeping of any accounts (Pete and Ken do that between just two people.) Furthermore he doesn’t manage or seem to need any employees other than Scarlet and he still makes three grand more than Peggy who heads up all of creative at another agency. Sure he created a needed department but it’s the only department where he gets to chill with Danish. The partners don’t joke about him being unmotivated because they don’t value television: they very much DO value television, even giving Harry Joan, a proven excellent worker, as help when he needed it previously. They do it because he is kind of blase and unmotivated, and when he does his job he expects to be praised beyond belief. They could hire a new department head for television and get better than Harry, which is what they should really do if they want to value TV more.

          • Sobaika

            I have never once gotten the impression any of the higher ups give a shit about the TV department. And correct me if I’m wrong, but he’s the only one they’ve shown doing any real work on it – everyone else is shown primarily with print ads and pitches. And they lent him Joan once, ages ago when he first created the department, only so she could validate his claim that he needed help.

            At least part of the reason why most of us recognize that Harry is a major asset is because we know where TV is headed. And I don’t think his threat to leave was idle.

            • MartyBellerMask

              To be fair I think we don’t see a lot of what he does because he travels a lot. I imagine that those “on location” teaser photos posted a few months ago will show Harry in his element.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            I think you’re looking at his job somewhat superficially. He’s powerful enough to land a meeting with a vice-president at Dow and pitch an hour-long television special to him. That’s pretty much the most ambitious thing we’ve seen him do onscreen and rivals the best of any of the business deals we’ve seen on the show. One idea and one meeting resulting in a $150,000 commitment isn’t just someone who’s doing their job.

            • Itsonreserve

              Ken got him a meeting with his father-in-law, for whom Ken manages the account. Harry didn’t just call up Dow and demand a meeting on his own prowess: he had an in and even discovered the people who might buy his rather unoriginal idea from the Account man. And yes, he did one good deal and got a giant bonus check. Again, I still don’t see any evidence that he isn’t being properly valued or is irreplaceable based on that. He is doing exactly what Don advised Peggy not to in “The Suitcase;” counting his achievements while still relatively young.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              The point is, his father in law would never have agreed to meet with some low-level, meaningless person.

              We’re afraid the rest of it sounds like you deliberately attempting to cast a smart, lucrative idea into as bad a light as possible because the character’s an asshole. We agree on one point. He’s an asshole. But he’s an asshole who’s been shown to be good at a very important job. Which means he has something in common with most of the major characters.

              And Don gave Peggy that advice when she was all of 23 and a year into her career. Harry’s been doing this for five or six years now and was one of only a few people asked to come to the new agency.

              In fact, he’s the only person who’s been with SCDP from the beginning and hasn’t been made partner. That’s most likely what this is all about.

            • Itsonreserve

              Yes, and Peggy was also one of another few people asked to come to the new agency (a few years into her career I believe). I’m not saying it’s not a good sale, and I’m not just saying this because he’s an asshole. I really just don’t understand how someone doing their job and thus getting a bonus is “undervalued,” and I’ve yet to be given any evidence of Harry going “above and beyond” to make me believe the writers don’t agree with me. He doesn’t deserve to be a partner for just doing his job: Ken isn’t a partner. I do my job at work, I have a title, I’m not a partner. SCDP isn’t a law firm, it’s a business. It took Don several years of good work at Sterling Cooper to get offered his first partnership, Harry in comparison is still rather green, and barging into a meeting and throwing a tantrum doesn’t do any favors.

              And a company would always agree to meet with the person handling their advertising account if they had expressed an issue with their public image.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              We just don’t see him as any other employee. He’s a department head (unlike Ken, who actually was offered partner and turned it down), who invented the department he’s heading, doing the work quite well – well enough to instantly earn a bonus greater than his yearly salary the second he started to complain – and is the only remaining original member of SCDP not made a partner. He definitely has a point, as far as we’re concerned.

              And Don got his partnership at earlier in his career than Harry is now, who’s been doing this for over 8 years.

            • Itsonreserve

              Well, I think your math may be wrong there. And again, does he deserve a partnership just for being there and doing his job (we can quibble on “well” all day I suppose.)? Furthermore, him being an asshole can’t be removed from the decision. If he’s too much of a hot head not to ask for a private meeting with his bosses when he has an issue with another partner as opposed to throwing a tantrum, how can they trust him not to throw one at a client? It’s much easier to do damage control with a fire-able employee than it is by forcing a partner out. Meanwhile Harry has been written as a bit of a skating slacker for a few seasons, why does one good accomplishment equal deserving? What other textual evidence is there that Harry is superb at his job? That he goes above and beyond? Was it when he got stoned with a bunch of teen girls at a Rolling Stones concert and set up a meeting with the wrong band, or was it when he hit on the hot new craze Jai Alai?

              I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I’ve been told by the writers that Harry is kind of mediocre for three or so years now and one good sale isn’t going to convince me that he’s suddenly “undervalued” so perhaps I’ll leave my argument at that.

            • MissAnnieRN

              While hypocrisy is not at all absent from the show, it would be extremely hypocritical for anyone at SCDP to include “but is he a nice person?” into their criteria for professional advancement…

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Pete brought in jai alai and criticizing Harry for getting stoned or yelling only serves to point out that you’re being highly selective. Most of the characters have gotten stoned and screamed in the office at this point. There have been fistfights in the conference room and ashtrays thrown at partners’ heads. If being an asshole is a criterion against advancing in this job, virtually every character on the show would be working in the mailroom. Failing to secure the Rolling Stones as a spokesperson for a product in 1967 seems like a pretty absurdly impossible standard by which to judge someone’s whole career.

              I can’t think of any real evidence in the writing that Harry is mediocre in his job and I’ve offered several examples as to why he’s seen as good at it and important to the company. Last year, a senior partner valued him enough and worried enough about angering him that he bribed him to give up his office for a junior partner, rather than ordering him to do it outright, which he would do if Harry was just some employee with little value to the company.

            • Itsonreserve

              Yes, these atrocities have been done…by the partners. And the creatives with no hope of being partner. Is everything fair and equal? No, of course not. But that’s life and my point is Harry manages to be very well-paid and employed even when he can’t play by the rules so he is not undervalued in any way. And I’m not criticizing him for failing to secure Rolling Stone, I’m criticizing him for believing he had secured a meeting with them and dragging Don to the concert. Ineptitude. Furthermore the bribery served another point at both times. In the case of the office it was Roger’s ineptitude at managing the younger generation that caused him to need to bribe Harry and in this instance giving him the bonus was to try and keep their own dirty dealings quiet while not risking a partnership on Harry.

              And Pete was the account man but Harry created and packaged the ABC Jai Alai deal. Granted, Don is the one who blew that deal but where is Jai Alai now?

              Truly, I think we will not convince each other, perhaps we should call it a draw.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              “Yes, these atrocities have been done…by the partners”

              I know. That’s exactly why I cited them. It makes no sense to argue that Harry yelling in the office makes him unsuitable to be partner when the partners themselves regularly engage in much worse behavior.

            • jen_wang

              Harry’s right that he’s undervalued, and it seems like it’s entirely because he’s not one of the cool kids. And it’s true, he’s totally uncool and Don understandably thinks he’s a douchebag, but he does do his job perfectly well. I think we’re meant to see in this episode how far he’s come, from the bumbling guy of early seasons to someone who has real initiative and insight in his work. It’s completely wrong of him to make this about Joan when his real beef is the partners, but he does have a legitimate complaint. Nobody has an actual argument against making him a partner; they just don’t want to.

            • filmcricket

              Did they do it before they were partners, though, is the point. Hierarchy matters. The partners get away with stuff because they are at the top of the heap. Pete was a little weasel & tried to get Don fired, but he never would have spoken to Don in front of the group back at SC the way he does now. Bert, Roger & Don have been partners since the show began, so we have no idea how they would have behaved before that.

              Harry can be as big a jackass as he wants, *after* he makes partner. So long as he’s subordinate to the rest of them, though, he has to keep it in check.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Sorry, but there are far too many examples of non-partners flipping out in the office and getting away with it to use this arbitrarily as a reason to deny Harry. From secretaries throwing ashtrays at a partner’s head to Joan throwing an airplane in the reception area, to Peggy having a screaming match with Don.

            • filmcricket

              Alison threw the ashtray at Don’s head after she’d already quit. Joan’s outburst was, yes, out of line, and Don hauled her out of the office immediately, but her yelling at Meredith – someone subordinate to her – is not the same as Harry yelling at his bosses. If Harry had yelled at Scarlett no one would even be talking about this.

              And in any case, neither Alison nor Peggy were promoted, were they? The only one on your list who’s acted out and then got promoted is Joan, and those were “special circumstances.”

              I agree with you, by the way, that just because Harry is a jackass doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be made partner. All of the people sitting around that table are jackasses. But in an exceedingly hierarchical office you cannot yell at your bosses and then expect to be promoted. Harry’s lucky he wasn’t fired on the spot. The higher ups don’t want to go through the trouble of replacing him, so they gave him cash to shut him up instead.

              And while the Dow special shows a lot of creativity and initiative, that’s not actually his job. When a client has a PR problem the accounts people are supposed to bring that to creative to solve the problem. When Pete stepped on creative’s toes several seasons back, it was only Bert saying “We need the Dyckman name” that kept him from being fired.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Alison threw the ashtray at Don AS she quit, but this is nitpicking in the extreme. The show has a long history of depicting employees acting outrageously and improperly in the workplace, including toward higher-ups. This is not the first time Harry came into a partner’s meeting and yelled at them, after all.

              “And in any case, neither Alison nor Peggy were promoted, were they? ”

              I never said they were. But neither were they fired or reprimanded for it, because SCDP clearly allows its employees some leeway in their behavior, which is my ENTIRE point.

            • purkoy28

              i dont think he was yelling AT them, he was more just yelling cause he s loud all the time and angry, thats a combo for loud. but i doubt he was yelling at them, he was just being loud and frustrated.

            • purkoy28

              i also get the impression that the LA guys like harry, he had a great thing going with the guy who went to the dow meeting too.

            • AnotherJulie

              How about you are both correct? He is undervalued BECAUSE he is an asshole? It is impossible to separate the two.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              Well I never argued that he’s not an asshole. It’s quite likely it’s a big reason why he’s undervalued. Megan told Peggy that Don didn’t like him at all.

            • http://www.facebook.com/people/Melissa-Janes/1307910218 Melissa Janes

              I think Harry’s biggest problem is not so much that he’s an asshole, but that he’s the wrong kind of asshole. A charming asshole can go far in the field. Harry doesn’t advertise /himself/ enough, and in the end, attractive artifice is what helps people rise up in many jobs. Don and Roger (and even Pete in some respects) sell a brand of masculinity that people want to reward and Harry is, let’s face it, a big neurotic nerd.

              Unfortunately, this breeds the kind of bitterness that he takes out on the wrong people. This is something I’ve seen happen with men who are raised with that sense of white straight male entitlement without reaping all the unfair benefits their more overtly masculine counterparts get. And of course, Harry takes this out on Joan, who knows all about not being valued for her work, because he feels impotent. Instead he should be taking it to the bosses who don’t understand how much his work means for the future of advertising. Though who knows if they’d listen, probably not. Which just leads back to the idea that Harry is smart enough for the actual work, but not slick enough to rise in the ranks.

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659113572 Suzanne Szlaius

              I wish that I could ‘vote up’ the second paragraph of your post 100x. So insightful and well said.

            • Melissa

              Thank you!

            • purkoy28

              i like harry, i think hes charming in an dorky just cant quite get it right kinda way

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              Good point.

            • http://www.deborahwiles.com/ GoodSally

              THIS. Harry is good at what he does. He doesn’t “show well” in NYC, but he’s probably well-suited for Hollywood, which is a plus for him and for SCDP. Also agree that it probably sticks in his craw that he’s the only remaining original Sterling Cooper employee not to be made partner or offered a partnership.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Is it bad that I’m really hoping the whole Broadway Joe thing is going to blow up in his face?

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659113572 Suzanne Szlaius

              If so, then we’re both bad because I said the same thing!

            • purkoy28

              you have been told by the writers eh, i think thats probably ur way of trying to sound right.

            • Itsonreserve

              Well of course, the writers write the show and we the audience inform their intentions from the show. They tell us what she we’re watching, they write it. They tell us about the characters and how they view each other by WRITING THE SHOW.

          • purkoy28

            pete and ken arent alone, they have employees who handle accounts with them, they are execs but there are jr. exects, like that bob guy.

      • Girl_With_a_Pearl

        Joe Namath did have a talk show in 1969, however. It lasted only nine episodes, so perhaps that was dumb idea too.

      • MK03

        “And Broadway Joe on Broadway is an incredibly dumb idea in my opinion.” To be fair, ALL those variety shows that permeated the late 60s through the 70s were painfully stupid.

        • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

          But many were highly successful and lucrative.

          • MK03

            True, which makes their success all the more baffling.

            • formerlyAnon

              Compared to Dancing With the Stars, American Idol, etc. etc.? We just have a different form of variety today. (Today’s reality competitions remind me of the dance marathons popular during the depression more than variety shows, actually.)

            • Munchkn

              Amen to that! I used to watch variety shows, but I can’t stand American Idol and I’ve never watched Dancing With the Stars. Ed Sullivan had on The Beatles and Elvis, but also ballet and opera and Topo Gigio. Some of Carol Burnett’s routines are still watched today like her spoof of Gone With The Wind. There was Flip Wilson as Geraldine, the Smother Brothers Comedy Hour. Of course, I like to watch What’s My Line reruns on youtube, too. Watching the panel try to guess the mystery guest is fun.

          • decormaven

            Hear, hear! And talk about a costuming gold mine. A TLo fashion recap of that genre would be something.

        • Itsonreserve

          Well, here you’ve got me because that is absolutely true.

      • fursa_saida

        I felt the same way, but am unfamiliar enough with how moving up to partner works (especially in a smaller company) that I wasn’t sure my impression was correct, so I decided not to mention it. Glad to hear it confirmed or at least agreed with.

      • eruannalle

        Totally agree with you on Harry. His tantrum was so ridiculous – should they give partnerships to every employee who does their job reasonably well? I felt no sympathy or, god forbid, admiration, for him whatsoever. (And yeah, Joan definitely could’ve handled Scarlet better, but Harry’s entire reaction was just. Ridiculous.)

        • beejeez

          Ridiculous it may seem, but not out of character. First, Harry has always been a little hot-headed and was still steaming from Joan’s slight; second, right or wrong, he probably was confident he could land at least as good and renumerative a job elsewhere if he were fired; third, he obviously had been undervalued or he would’ve gotten the boot instantly; fourth, we already knew Harry can be an effective self-interested negotiator and his tantrum earned him a bonus that doubled his annual income. Come to think of it, I guess I don’t even think his tantrum seems ridiculous.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659113572 Suzanne Szlaius

        I’m hoping that “Broadway Joe….” implodes upon itself or comes at the exact same time of more reporting of napalm use in Vietnam. I just loathe Harry. If I were in his position (as much as I could be), I’d ask for a meeting with Roger and Bert, or Don, or ALL of the partners together (but I think a one-on-one would be more appropriate) and quietly make the case of “Here’s what I’ve done for the company. I’d like to know what I can do for the company in order to reach my goal of becoming a partner”. But than again, I’m not a raging misogynist a-hole like Harry. And yes, the whole secretary thing (right down to her name being “Scarlett”-with the whole ‘red = ‘hussy’ theme that is being repeated) seems as if they are fooling around. I wish that Roger and Bert hadn’t rewarded his terrible behavior with that check (although they did put him in his place a bit, especially Bert)

      • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

        You’ve made such a good argument for why Harry shouldn’t expect a partnership that I must change my opinion of what I said earlier about him just feeling undervalued and not really being an ass. I’ll rephrase it to say that even though Harry is under appreciated, I don’t think Harry really IS an ass per Don, but he has the capacity to ACT like one on occasion. Re: Broadway Joe, they really put that kind of dreck on t.v. in the 60’s. Now it’s been replaced with a thing called the reality show.

    • Jacquelina La Bomba

      Lying directly to a supervisor, and a partner no less, qualifies as grounds for termination as far as I’m concerned. Not to mention that Scarlet did in fact break the rules by leaving early and by asking another employee to clock her out. This might have been forgiven if she’d come clean when given the opportunity, but instead she chose to lie. I find it odd that Scarlet’s bold-face lying– which I consider to be the offense that led to her firing– is not even mentioned in this recap; instead, Joan is criticized for “Queen Bee” behavior and being a bitch. Joan and others at the office may skirt or outright break the rules as a matter of course, but consideration of that fact to defend Scarlet’s poor choices implies that everyone is held to the same standard. Reminder: Lane’s secretary who screwed up the flowers order was fired on the spot for much less. Life is not fair, and different people have different privileges– especially in a sharply hierarchical time and office context such as that depicted in Mad Men. I think Joan was well within her right to fire Scarlet for lying, and I think any one of the partners would have been equally justified. Harry’s accusations that this was somehow part of a power trip for Joan scream of sexism, and the inclusion in this analysis of Joan’s personality and past transgressions coupled with the lack of mention of Scarlet’s lying are mystifying. Joan is further accused of acting unprofessionally, but not Harry. Excuse me? Harry threw a full-on tantrum worthy of a 4-year-old, called Joan a whore, attacked the other partners for promoting her, and, as this analysis rightly points out, generally acted like an asshole. Harry takes the prize for unprofessional behavior here. (Scarlet should get a mention too, for breaking the rules, lying, running after Joan and trying to signal to Dawn to shut up– which put her in a position to get fired, btw– and crying like a baby.) Harry should be fucking praising Joan for agreeing to sleep with that Jaguar sleezeball; she may have saved the firm and his stupid ass (i.e., his job).

      • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

        ” the inclusion in this analysis of Joan’s personality and past transgressions coupled with the lack of mention of Scarlet’s lying are mystifying.”

        Don’t be ridiculous. We include analysis of the character’s personalities and past behavior in every single review of this show. We addressed Scarlet’s behavior by saying we didn’t feel her violations warranted firing. You are free to disagree and mention other aspects of it that stand out to you, but don’t play this game where you make it somehow about us for not writing the exact review in our head you think we should have written.

        ” Joan is further accused of acting unprofessionally, but not Harry. Excuse me? ”

        We called Harry an asshole several times and made it clear he was out of line in the way he treated her. Again, stop getting bent out of shape because we didn’t phrase things exactly as you would have liked. Instead, join the conversation and tell us what you saw and how you see it.

        • Jacquelina La Bomba

          You gentlemen posted your opinion; I responded with mine. This is not ridiculous.
          Edited to add: “stop getting bent out of shape because we didn’t phrase things exactly as you would have liked. Instead, join the conversation and tell us what you saw and how you see it.” Not bent out of shape b/c you “didn’t phrase things exactly as [I] would have liked.” Not bent out of shape at all; however, you gentlemen neglected to include an element of the story that I found very significant. That covers “Instead, join the conversation and tell us what you saw and how you see it.” as well.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            Sorry, but it absolutely is ridiculous to state that it’s “mystifying” as to why we would analyze Joan’s personality and history, when we literally do it to every character in all our reviews. This is not a matter of your opinions.

            • minerrva

              My read is that Jacqueline is trying to suggest that by de-emphasizing the strength of the language you chose to describe Scarlet’s transgression, and then emphasizing the early season “bitch” narrative (there are other ways to frame Joan’s behavior here, after all, as the recap points out) that Joan’s behavior is largely interpreted in the worst possible light. And that does seem surprising.

            • Kim A Isenhart

              It seems to me that you two are a bit touchy about someone disagreeing with your opinions. Your critiques are well thought out and extremely interesting to read, but I don’t see why dissenting views should be argued into submission with such persistence. You are not the ultimate judges of how the show should be
              perceived. Rather, you are here to offer your analysis and provide a forum for others to respond to your
              assessments with their own. No?

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              It seems to me that you totally ignored the part where we said it’s not about disagreeing with our opinions; it’s about attempting to find some reason as to why we have them that’s so objectionable.

              There are over 600 responses to this post, a great deal of which contain responses that disagree with us. You will note that we don’t have an issue with any of them.

              Should everyone else make exactly one comment to this post or are they allowed to debate their points like we have done, in your view?

              And we “are here” to run our site in a manner we feel serves it best. We are not “here” to provide a forum. This is not a message board. You are not the person that decides what we should be, let alone what we’re “here” for.

              Seriously. “You are here to…” Who the hell are you to come to my site and tell me what I’m here for? How jaw-droppingly obnoxious is THAT?

            • Kim A Isenhart

              So you are not here to provide a forum or a message board, but rather to “run our site in a manner we feel serves it best”?. We get it, this is not a democracy; our function is to toe the party line or be silent. Thank you for proving my point.
              Perhaps the problem lies in the catty and superior manner in which you have responded to my comments (mocking my opening phrase, flagging others with your little air quotes) and to the comments of the original poster. YOU are not the persons who decide what WE should be, let alone how we choose to express our opinions.

        • minerrva

          I do think that addressing Scarlet’s behavior ought to include not just the time clock violation, but the clumsy cover-up, and publicly trying to undermine Joan on the stairwell by getting Dawn to lie too.

      • Laylalola

        I agree it was Scarlet’s insubordination to her that Joan objected to (and Harry does not object to — nor, apparently, do any of the other male partners, though they do seem to object to Harry’s insubordination to Joan). Otherwise she would have fired Scarlet at the desk, and Dawn would have been fired too.

        Scarlet is interesting and her position inside the agency seems … fluid (in flux?). Didn’t she used to be the secretary/new Joan who took minutes at the meetings of the partners once Joan became a partner? And it seems like she and Harry might be having an affair.

        • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

          When the partners asked her why she fired Scarlet she said it was because of the time clock violation and the dishonest expectation of wages for time away from work.

          • teensmom99

            I actually think she’s taking the Lane role . . . even if Lane didn’t live up to those high standards (and he did pay the price of his failure to do so). But of course, when a woman acts like Lane it s different–it’s secretarial rather than bean counting.

            • http://www.deborahwiles.com/ GoodSally

              Who’s in Lane’s office now? Anyone? I’d like to see Joan move into a partner’s office — away from those filing cabinets, and next to a view.

          • jen_wang

            I wonder if the skipping out would have been as big of a deal if she hadn’t fudged her time card. There’s lots of misbehaving at the office, but very little done by secretaries while they’re on the clock. Also, what exactly does Joan do nowadays? It seems like she’s doing both Lane’s job and her own?

            This episode reminded me of the one where Joan fires Jane, only to have it reversed by Roger. Scarlet doesn’t deliberately manipulate Harry the way Jane does Roger, but in both instances, the men steamroller over Joan’s authority.

            • Jessi03

              I thought of Jane, too. Poor Joanie can’t fire anyone and have it stick, it seems.

            • CozyCat

              Scarlet was misbehaving on many levels. She lied about how much she worked. She got another employee to lie on her behalf. And used a lie to talk Dawn into covering for her; she was gone for 5 hours, much longer than it takes to pick out a scarf. If she had gone to Joan and said: “can I have an hour or two out of the office to buy the gift since I was tied to my desk at lunch?”, Joan probably would have said yes. So her excuse to Dawn and Joan was a lie.

              Then she tried to get Dawn to lie again about what happened to the time cards.

              That’s why Scarlet and Jane were fired. Both undermined the structure of authority and accountability in the office. It was more than just the time card issue.

              BUT: Joan is learning that the “real” partners couldn’t care less about that kind of stuff. It’s beneath them, petty little distractions from the great work of running the agency. So if she’s ever to be taken seriously, she has to let go of the things that were once important to her.

            • purkoy28

              thats great, thats exactly why she gave the keys to dawn….great point : )

          • minerrva

            I thought that might be because Joan would be reluctant to admit that anyone had been insubordinate to her.

          • filmcricket

            She *said* that but it doesn’t mean that’s why she did it. When she tried to keep Joey from being brought on full-time in S4 she didn’t tell Lane or Don that it was because he was insubordinate, she implied that he was telling off-colour jokes and offending “the girls.” Joan doesn’t want to give the impression that she’s disrespected by anyone, and she certainly wouldn’t tell the partners a mere secretary had felt comfortable lying to her face.

        • Zaftiguana

          Oh, they’re definitely having an affair.

      • http://twitter.com/1tsplove sara

        I think you may be misunderstanding TLo’s analysis of changes in Joan’s behavior over time. They were not typecasting her into the uptight bitch role, they were noting the important role she has always played (and relished) within the office as completely “in charge” when it comes to the secretaries.

        I do agree that Harry’s behavior was unprofessional and extremely sexist (especially the bullshit about Joan’s power trips and “petty dictatorship”) but I think that is so obvious it did not necessitate explicit underlining by TLo.

        I am not entirely convinced Harry really deserves a partnership. Ken is good as his job too, but that doesn’t mean he deserves a partnership. I’m not quite sure what merits such a huge promotion and stake in the company.

        Also, was I the only one surprised Don didn’t say anything during Harry’s little outburst? He is usually so quick to defend Joan and I was a little disheartened that it wasn’t Don or Roger (but nasty old Pete) who jumped to Joan’s defense (albiet in a very minor way).

        • Jacquelina La Bomba

          I have not misunderstood; in fact, I agree with TLo’s appraisal of Joan’s personality. What I find odd is the focus on these aspects of Joan’s past and personality in a situation in which it was so clear that Scarlet deserved to be fired, regardless of how much of a bitch or Queen Bee Joan had or had not been in the past– particularly given that no mention was made of Scarlet’s lying and ridiculous behavior after she lied.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            It’s not remotely “odd” if you don’t think Scarlett deserved to get fired, as we stated in the review. You disagree. That’s fine. It’s not “odd” that we have a different take.

            • purkoy28

              i think that woman who is arguing with u probably fired a person in the same way and knows she was wrong. Now she is looking for an argument cause lots of people think the firing was harsh.

          • Zaftiguana

            I think their point is that they don’t think it’s at all obvious within that work environment that Scarlet deserved to be fired, and they backed that up pretty solidly. SC and SCDP employees have always played fast and loose with their hours (and everything else). To suddenly decide that this is an offense worthy of public firing on the spot is noteworthy.

            I personally think it had more to do with her disgust at Scarlet flailing around like an idiot directly behind her while she talked to Dawn that pushed Joan over the edge, but that’s me. Joan doesn’t suffer foolishness in other women gladly.

          • Jenny

            I think (and obviously y’all can disagree) that the point of the whole plot line with Scarlet and Joan was Joan realizing she’s above ruling the steno pool. She’s an executive now. The story was about Joan and her development (so reminding us of her personality in previous seasons is important to that) and squabbling over whether or not Scarlet should have been fired is missing the point. It doesn’t matter whether she be fired or not.

            I’m sure, though, that Harry wouldn’t have made such a fuss if Don or Roger had fired Scarlet. Harry is a dick and will never make partner until he can put SCDP before himself. The other partners, even as selfish as they are in nature, have proven they can put SCDP first.

        • http://howtofaint.tumblr.com/ How to Faint

          Harry doesn’t deserve a partnership at present, but I think that in selling the show to Dow, he laid a strong foundation for an eventual partnership. Especially if it leads to Dow switching to SCDP. Remember, even Don couldn’t get them to throw a tiny bit of business their way. Meanwhile, Harry easily sold what today would be worth almost a million bucks of ad time to them.

        • bd73

          ken was offered a partnership last season and turned it down.

      • crash1212

        These were EXACTLY my thoughts! Now that you’ve said them so eloquently, you save me some time! I was furious by Harry’s behavior and as a manager of people for most of my career, what Scarlet did would’ve been a fire-able offense even by today’s standards.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        Scarlet disrespected Joan, and I have a feeling that since the Jaguar thing, there are a lot of people in the office who’ve treated Joan in the same way: like her position and authority don’t count, like she’s not someone they have to respect. I don’t think any of the season 1 Sterling Cooper secretaries would have had the balls to lie to Joan’s face when she called them on a fib and then tried to get another secretary to do the same in full view of the rest of the office. And if they had, Joan would have fired them in the same way, and probably been given the latitude to do as she pleased with the secretarial staff.

        Joan was trying to make it clear that she has authority and the others need to respect her in an old and familiar way because of everything else she’s experiencing. She didn’t go about it in the best way, but I think it’s entirely likely this was just one in a string of incidents where everyone treats Joan like she’s nobody. Harry’s unchecked temper tantrum, calling her a whore in front of the partners and getting a fat paycheck out of it instead of being fired, and Scarlet being allowed to stay on just reinforced this. Joan’s got a better title but less power than ever. I thought a lot of Joan’s season 1 bitchiness was the same. Joan works a very old school type of feminine power where your status is acquired entirely through men and your relationship to powerful men. In the 50s, this worked in Joan’s favor. In the late 60s, it works less and less.

        I think Joan’s changes are not so much changes in who she is than in the world she lives in. Joan is, and always has been, a survivor. If the world changes, Joan will figure out how to survive in it eventually.

        • Glammie

          Yep, I think that that message was clear when Joan switched into that killer black suit at the end. She was realizing that while she could still draw men, she was really going to be on her own. She never wanted to make her way in a man’s world the way Peggy did–or so she said–but that’s where she’s ending up. Despite her overt ambitions, I think she was always too powerful to fit the traditional woman’s role that easily.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            Good point! That’s probably why she never quite did manage to make the whole happy homemaker thing work out. :)

        • http://marshmallowjane.com/ marshmallowjane

          I think Joan could have pushed the issue with the partners to get Scarlet fired, but she saw the situation as a waste of time. I don’t think this was a loss for her. I doubt that Scarlet will try something like this again in the near future. And she probably felt forced to fire Scarlet in the first place. Now she doesn’t have to go through finding another secretary and getting her trained. It has been my experience that–even though an office can’t function without support staff–the sales people make the money. They can break rules and keep their own hours, but the secretarial staff cannot. Ugly reality.

        • lulubella

          Great analysis. Did you notice how in the first or second ep when they were taking photographs of the partners, Harry waltzed through Joan’s session and shoulder clipped her as he passed her on the stairs (the same shoulder clip the squatter did to Betty when he left the room where they were making goulash)? Harry’s was a sign of personal disrespect directed at Joan (the squatter’s at The Establishment). At first I couldn’t figure out why Harry was so ticked off at the photography session as I had not seen MM in such a long time, but then I realized it was because of his anger at his station at the firm, and his petulant behavior. Although he’s always been overeactive, maybe he’s taking too many cues from the drama kings and queens in Hollywood.

      • eruannalle

        Yeah, I kind of got the impression that Joan fired her for the lying and evasion rather than for the actual missing work bit – she doesn’t snap at her until she pulls the, frankly ridiculous, move behind her back (literally!). Harry was just an infuriating sleazeball this episode, god.

      • Guest

        Yes!

      • http://marshmallowjane.com/ marshmallowjane

        I agree with everything you said. Harry was too ignorant to check with Joan to see what the fuss was about. I was disappointed to find out that Joan’s act to save the company is general fodder. Is that fair? This type of gossip undermines Joan’s authority, and every so often she has to show she’s the boss, especially when someone like Harry doesn’t understand office politics. Joan was smart to see what these secretaries had cooked up, although I wish she’d realized that Dawn had been caught in a difficult position. Also, I doubt Joan had intended to fire Scarlet but Scarlet behaved very badly in front of other office members. It’s sad that the men who make the money for the firm behave any way they want. They don’t have scruples when it comes to sleeping around. They don’t seem to have loyalty in general. They went to Joan (the goddess) for help. It was obvious that Joan was gritting her teeth to go through with the agreement and she is a whore for this? The other men should put Harry in his place.

    • KateWo

      It was only a matter of time before Don and Megan were asked to swing.

      Joan: I read this as the episode showing her change, she closet some self respect from the Jaguar storyline, but I think the visit from her friend revived her. She said everyone views her as a secretary, but she was still doing head secretary tasks. No other partner would bother with secretary drama, especially when Harry had no complaints about Scarlett’s absence. And how is Joan in charge of time clocks and supplies? That is not a partners job, and I believe her passing it to Dawn signals her realization that she needs to let go of her former responsibilities and take what lays ahead.

      Harry: Sure he’s right about the under appreciation but he’s still a dick who doesn’t bat an eye when handed a commission check larger than his yearly salary.

      Don: Same old, and its exhausting. Of course he shits on Megan’s success after his own failure at work. I hope Megan leaves him.

      Peggy: Loved her scenes, also showed a slight shortcoming. I bet she played her ad real safe by serving the clients needs that directly because of her past history with Heinz Beans.

      • MK03

        Am I the only one who was REALLY skeeved out by the swingers?? I just cannot comprehend your boss and his wife asking you and your husband to come over for a four-way. It feels like such a violation. I suppose times really have changed…

        • formerlyAnon

          Oh, I was skeeved as well. But then, whether it’s vanilla or kinky – or not sexual at all – I have an enormous aversion to having those things I consider part of my private life spill over into work in any way. (And I think more people tried to make swinging work for them than actually took to it successfully.)

        • Lisa_Co

          All I could think of was the ad for the movie Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice ( foursome in a bed) which came out in 1969.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          For me it really put a twist on if Megan got the part because of her acting skill or if they had plans for her all along.

      • bobman59

        Sidebar: Oh – that’s what happened to Ted McGinley.

    • egurl

      What dramatic irony that Megan is playing a maid being seduced by her employer, and Don is sleeping with (and symbolically paying for) Sylvia in the maid’s room. Don deserves his comeuppance this season. I wonder if he’ll get it?

      • MK03

        I think he will. There’s only one season left after this. Shit’s gonna start getting truly explosive.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659113572 Suzanne Szlaius

          I keep having a weird feeling that he’s going to be assassinated (perhaps a wrong word choice, as he’s not exactly JFK, RFK, or MLK, but that’s the word that comes to me). I don’t see it as being exactly like the infamous “Who Shot JR” plot on Dallas back in the day, but the word assassination keeps coming to my mind re: Don this season. (maybe it’s the ‘ass’ part of the word I should focus on since he’s being more of one than ever)

          • MK03

            I just can’t imagine Don is big enough for an assassination attempt. I do, however, have a (completely unproven, conjecture-only) theory about how the season will end: Megan will find out about Don’s affair. As we’ve seen, she can be very childish and petulant when angry. So, in an attempt to hurt him like he hurt her, she will let the cat out of the bag about Don’s past.

            • http://twitter.com/Rowsella315 Kathy G

              At that point, who will even care. Times have changed.

            • MK03

              The Army might care, seeing as it’s desertion…

    • MarTeaNi

      “To be perfectly honest, when we had that realization of how much she changed, we began to wonder if it was all that realistic; especially in a show with at least one of its themes being about how bad people are at the act of change.”

      I’ve always had that in the back on my mind about Harry becoming such an asshole. His shift was pretty abrupt in 1964/season4, and it always bothered me. Little indications of the previous incarnation are still sometimes visible, like with “Christmas Waltz,” but mostly I’ve found this transition baffling.

      • Laylalola

        Well, it *was* about 1964 when the “don’t trust anyone over 30″ slogan took off, and Harry has always awkwardly straddled these two generations.

        • MarTeaNi

          I can get going from point A to point B, and understand what they were going for. Harry’s exposure to media executives, trying to ingratiate himself to overcome for their lack of respect or appreciation for him, being the “young, hip” one in an established office alienating him.

          It just always feels like they didn’t do any transitioning. Seasons 1-3 Harry was helpful, friendly, easily felt guilty, loved his wife. Season 4+ Harry is resentful, name-dropping, asshole nearly always. I got whiplash, this change was so abrupt.

    • http://twitter.com/chylde chylde

      Oy, you didn’t mention the swinging couple who invited Don and Megan home!

      • OrigamiRose

        I can’t believe the husband was played by Ted McGinley!

      • http://winemedinemecincinnati.com Julie

        I know! I kind of loved them. Possibly the only functional marriage in the entire history of the show.

    • sarahjane1912

      Thanks again, boys. Great recap as usual.

      Yep, Joan WAS a bitchy Queen Bee, but I did feel sorry for her perched on the end of the sofa in the Electric Circus. She looked all wrong. Her clothes were wrong, her demeanour was wrong, she looked ‘above it all’ even though minutes later she wasn’t above being smooched because some dude who looked about 20 years younger than her delivered an okay pick-up line. She’s what — 37 now? — and it really showed. She couldn’t play a ‘young secretary’ as well as her friend.

      Don deserves to go to hell. Seriously. What a bastard.

      Harry was a prize dick as well. Never really covers himself in glory when he’s got a storyline, does he? Have to ask though — I know MM do their research — but I was stunned [STUNNED!] to learn he was on 22K when the average income was $7,850. And the average house price was just under 15K. He certainly has come a long way since having the TV job created for him and being the Cinderella of the office. Well, he hasn’t matured at all, but still … and he accepts the check for the Dow gig as if it’s pocket money.

      Question: We’ve seen the dope smoking [yeah, yeah, we got it; it's much more relaxed now], but when is at least one of these characters going to start popping some uppers/downers? I thought Betty might be on the dolls, but no sign of that [yet]. There must be a few SDC worker bees getting some of that action.

      Oh. And love Dawn. Love her. Loved that she had some outside-work storyline. Hope that continues.

      Looking forward to reading all the other BK feedback. My fave day of the week. :)

      • Melanie

        I just used an inflation calculator – that $23k bonus Harry got in 1968 is $154k in today’s dollars. Jesus. But, I think the reason he treated it like “pocket money” because, in his eyes, he was *entitled* to at least that much.

        • sarahjane1912

          Holy CRAP! So that means his yearly is just short of that. Wow. That sounds more like the sort of money peeps were being paid in the ’80s [though I know some of the agencies had bonus tie-ins and things]. That’s almost obscene money for a small shop like SCD. Things have certainly moved on. I have to wonder how Harry upped his rate in the years between becoming ‘The TV Department’ to now. Interesting. Thanks for that. :)

          Totally see what you mean by the entitlement factor. I guess when one is as riled up as he was during both the first slut-shaming confrontation in the meeting [with Joan] and the second one with Cooper and Roger, it might be secondary to the ‘respect’ Harry feels is his due.

          And PS. It’s been commented upon before, but I did love Roger’s comment: Shall we fire him now? Before he cashes the cheque? *GRIN*

    • MartyBellerMask

      As much as I loathe the “C-word”, it really suits Sylvia. Dislike her intensely.

      • AZU403

        Can you explain? Yes, like practically everyone else in the series she is committing adultery. But she hasn’t been nasty to anyone, not even her lover’s wife. When they were having their discussion about birth control she simply stated her beliefs without going into a rant about it.

        • MartyBellerMask

          Not adultery. That is so commonplace on this show that it almost doesn’t even register. What got me was the part where she says she is praying for him to “find peace”. Does she think think she is his savior? This is just BEYOND self-righteous, and delusional, in my opinion. And does she think her sleeping with him is bringing him peace too? Seems like the opposite. She’s no bigger hypocrite than a lot of characters, but they’ve been called plenty of names over the years. And she’s the first person to bring religious hypocrisy into the picture. I really haven’t got a lot of tolerance for that.

          Like I said, it’s an ugly word, a loaded word, but I stand by it. I think “horrible person” isn’t strong enough.

          • beejeez

            I intensely dislike this Macbeth character. He’s so mean to people!

    • nobodylikesmilhouse

      Don and Sylvia’s affair is really boring so I hope they resolve it soon, in some way.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Melissa-Janes/1307910218 Melissa Janes

        Agreed. I honestly think they created a generic Catholic mistress to invoke religious guilt symbolism for Don’s pathos. What a waste of a talented actor.

        • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

          And to project the Madonna/whore dichotomy onto. Blech.

    • MilaXX

      Don was participatory annoying this week. I think Megan knew he would not take news of her kissing scene well, but the poor gal is sadly in love with Don. As for the marriage, I thought it was over last season when Don walked off that movie set. Once Megan began to assert herself and was not the person Don wanted or dreamed her to be, it was the beginning of the end.

      Pete remains pathetic. Even if Don did need a bachelor pad for his liaisons, why would he want Pete’s raggedy hole in the wall?

      Needless to say I love all of Dawn’s scene’s last night. I am looking forward to a Koan/Dawn mentorship.

      As much as I dislike how Joan got her partnership and I think Harry is a creep, looking at it from his perspective, or the viewpoint of anyone who doesn’t know how valuable Joan has consistently been to SCDP, she is just the secretary that slept her way to the top. It’s ugly, but it will always be there.

      As much as I hated Don this episode was my favorite of the season so far and it was mostly due to the women; Joan, Peggy and Dawn

      • http://twitter.com/Rowsella315 Kathy G

        I don’t think that Meghan had asserted herself so much as behave passive aggressively and throw a drunken tantrum until Don got her a screen test with one of his clients. Meghan is boring. She has a daddy and me relationship with her husband and gets upset when he doesn’t treat her otherwise — but that was what she was shipping and shopping for when she went to California with him and accepted his impulsive proposal. It is not remarkable that she wants more than that, that she wishes her needs and desires to be of equal consequence in their marriage (after all, she wants no children to impede her career aspirations)–it is remarkable to me that she expects that from Don. He chose her over Faye (another woman not interested in children and focused on her career) to avoid this. Meghan continues to be very impressionable and I wondered if Don had been amenable, if she would have gone along with the swinging couple and “gotten to know them better.” She is no wide-eyed 21 year old anymore.

    • jennsilentcrow

      Is anyone growing weary if Meghan? It took me so long to get onboard, then i loved her last season…and last night i realized I have begun to dread when she shows up. I feel guilty.

      • Danielle

        I dunno, this was the first episode in a quite a while where I was actually rooting for her.

        • https://www.facebook.com/GOODGODGIRLGETAGRIP?ref=tn_tnmn Fisher&SonsFuneralHome

          I agree, last season I couldnt stand her but this season, Im rooting for her. She deserves to succeed and deserves a husband who will support her ambitions.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        I don’t like her, but she deserves better than Don.

      • sarahjane1912

        I was in the same place as you: just NOT getting behind her gangly colt-like ingenue thing she had going. And it seemed like SUCH a cliche. The dewy wide-eyed secretary meme has been played out in countless movies/telly since time forgot, and I was kinda bummed that it was being done in MM [which I always felt was full of surprises].

        The other thing which absolutely struck me in her showdown with Don after he slut-shames her for her scene, was that when she defended herself, I suspect it was only me that thought this, but oh my word: it was like she was channeling a Betty/Sally mother/daughter confrontation. Even Megan’s *tone* was like that of an embittered ‘it’s not fair/no-one understands me’ teenager thing. I swear — to me at least — she was behaving in JUST that petulant fashion.

        Of course, the age difference between Don/Megan is such that there were bound to be these sorts of ‘issues’. But that scene just screamed at me: he is the ‘parent’ and you are the ‘child’. Way to go perpetuating that weird dynamic!

        • beejeez

          It may not be fair to Megan, but I read her part in the series as an essential benchmark of The Tragedy of Richard Whitman. Before, Don’s promiscuity could be written off as both representative not only of the male entitlement of the era but as a reaction to bitchy Betty. Megan, however, is the Perfect Wife — sexy, adoring, fun, just challenging enough, determined to make the marriage work. We measure Don’s accelerating descent by his blindness to her perfection, and to his own self-loathing and culpability not only in harming Megan, but in helping to turn Betty into … Betty. And messing up Sally in the process. Not to say the MM folks aren’t throwing me a curve, but they are keeping me interested.

    • Frank_821

      Can someone remind the name of the blond secretary in the partners’ meeting. For some reason i thought her name was Scarlet and Harry’s had a different name

      • Yolanda13

        Meredith

      • decormaven

        Meredith, the once-receptionist who called Joan to the front desk, only for Joan to get served with divorce papers. “Surprise! There’s an airplane here to see you!”

        • Sobaika

          HAHA! That was a good scene.

      • Prout-prout

        She’s the new Lois!

    • Paula Pertile

      Still trying to process this episode this morning, (and even dreamed about me and Joan kvetching about some style mavens ragging on our outfits! [not you, T or Lo]). Thank you for such a great analysis.

      Loved the tidbits of fun music to support the scene, like the the “spy music” when Stan was going into the Private “Ketchup room” to work.

      Megan’s whole “look” at dinner was a ‘bow down’ moment – can’t wait for the style recap!

      Love that Joan is back, full force. Glorious.

      Appreciate that Dawn and her friend had a scene or two, but it would have been nice if they felt real.

      Can’t decide which Ketchup pitch I like better. Do I remember that winning one, for real, or am I hallucinating? I’m thinking they must have based this on an actual ad that ran.

      Don’s descent into – whatever – is really starting to speed up, isn’t it?

      • Melanie

        We didn’t see the winning pitch – it went to a third (real-life) firm.

        • Paula Pertile

          Wow, I missed that. I thought Peggy’s ‘won’. I’ll have to watch this one again.

        • siriuslover

          In the Heinz encyclopedia entry for Advertising Age, it seems that there was no shifting of Ketchup in 1968, but rather in 1964 when Ketchup went to Doyle Dane Bernbach in NY and the ad that went to the early ’70s was “Heinz is what Ketchup Tastes Like.” This was replaced with the ad I grew up with, “Anticipation.” Remember the guy putting the ketchup bottle on the roof of the building, running downstairs and getting the ketchup drop? That began in 1974.
          Just some random facts on ketchup!

    • formerlyAnon

      Oh dear. If Joan succeeds too well it won’t ring true, if she flounders too much I’ll hate watching it, if she reacts to either by exercising power in petty ways to prove she can, I won’t enjoy her as much. I hate to watch Joan have to face down Harry and the more subtle indignities, but it’s really nothing new for her. At the beginning of the show it was more juvenile and less intentionally vitriolic because she wasn’t a threat and indeed, was in some ways playing her role in a societally sanctioned game.

      Never disliked Megan, hope she’s smart enough to get a chunk of change out of Don as she’s on her way out the door. Poor Sally – I think she was developing a relationship there. Should be interesting to see if they touch on the effect on the kids, especially Sally, of another marriage falling apart on Don.

      Don’s being Don. It’s why his tragic broken-ness elicits so little sympathy.

      Go Peggy! I still wonder if she and Don will somehow partner up, but this time with Peggy ascendant and Don in decline. Peggy and Stan as friends – may it be so.

      I’m afraid Dawn is going to run into trouble and honestly, I don’t want to watch that. But her story line going forward interests me more than any of the guys in the office. Not a lot has changed there.

    • VictoriaDiNardo

      When the Joan crew got into the taxi and gave the downtown address for the night club, my New Yorker husband muttered sarcastically “where are they going, the Electric Circus?”. Well, yeah!

    • Frank_821

      Something just dawned on me concenrning Joan saying everyone still treats her as a secretary. Yet as you say she’s still treating herself as a secretary. All the secretaries call her Joan. They don’t refer to her as Mrs Harris. When they started SCDP, by all rights that’s what the new employees should have been addressing her as. In fact Lane was the only person ever to address her that way

      • the_valkyrie

        I noticed that too. All the men are referred to by their surnames by the girls.

      • http://twitter.com/1tsplove sara

        I’m not sure about having her them now call her Ms. Harris or Mrs. Holloway because maybe that would just be an awkward transition when the other secretaries are so familiar to her, but I did notice her office still doesn’t have her name on the door (it says “Traffic”). I’m surprised she wouldn’t handle that herself to get it taken care of right away.

        • sarahjane1912

          Oh god. Traffic? Really?! I missed that! One of the most incredibly UNDERSUNG departments in an agency. And I should know, having worked in a few in my dim dark past. Poor girl. That’s just like being a production manager, ins and outs, courier service, general dogsbody. It should get more respect but it doesn’t. And these days, yes, a good traffic manager can work their way up into the ‘big leagues’, but I’m stunned that a partner has that sign on her door. It’s one of those jobs that seems important because it handles a lot of important admin-y type stuff, and without traffic, the agency would fall on its arse, but in truth? It’s a criminally-under-appreciated area.

          Thanks for noticing that. It brings a wealth of understanding to What Joan Does. :)

          • SJ Alexander

            Oh, gosh, now I am imagining Joan’s ferryman’s paddle being passed to poor lonely Dawn. The keys are just the beginning.

    • http://twitter.com/JoannaCarver Joanna Carver

      I loved this episode, but I’ve got to agree that Don’s getting pretty tiresome. His marriage is doomed at this point, and if there’s going to be any ounce of happiness in the end to this series he’ll realize that really all he’s got left is his children. I used to cautiously ‘ship for him and Joan, but now I don’t want him anywhere near her.

      So, obviously Harry’s having an affair with Scarlet, right?

    • Kathleen Kahoe

      T LO, based on your astute observations of Sylvia’s dress in other episodes, my catholic upbringing and the fact that you trained me to look at the clothes in Mad Men I was led to Google and found something creepy. Joan, Megan and Sylvia were all dressed like Nuns at some point of this episode. In 1968 there was a case of the “three
      killer nuns” who also turned to prostitution. Your analysis is always so insightful, I hope you include this in your Mad Style post:)

      • siriuslover

        Wow, great investigative work!

      • Jenny

        I noticed the women dressed as nuns, too. I didn’t make the connection with “three killer nuns” but thought for sure there has to be some reason they dressed that way.

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        Hah! I thought Joan’s outfit was about her trying to look super-respectful after Harry called her a whore (showing just how shaken she was by that, as she’s never resorted to Victorian schoolteacher costumes before).

      • http://twitter.com/jhjenn Jennifer Howard

        I was just shocked to see someone wearing black to work. So common now, it really stood out back then. I hadn’t associated it with a nun, but do now.

    • JulieTy

      Another brilliant recap by TLO.
      It’s interesting that I like Breaking Bad so much, when Walter White’s descent is SO much more heinous than Don Draper’s consistency. At least on that show there seems to be some attempt at balance and conflict — both within the individual characters and within the cast as a whole. It’s more palatable in a way, and far more interesting to watch. Weiner has now dug himself into a hole where NONE of the major characters has any redeeming qualities left. I’m rooting for Trudy – have loved her always – but she’s not likely to get much screen time. Ditto Sally Draper. I’d happily watch an hour about her anytime. But I literally can’t watch Jon Hamm’s “love” scenes anymore. I guess it says something (?) about him as an actor that I feel that way when I think he’s so dreamy out of character.
      If — as Tom and Lorenzo have said — one of the themes of the show is that Don Draper views all women as whores, Weiner and company are being WAY too heavy-handed with it. Respect the audience, give us some subtlety and credit for connecting the dots on our own (again, as is done on Breaking Bad). Don bristled at what happened to Joan, but treats all other women as if they deserve nothing more. I shudder to think what could happen to give him a wake-up call. Does something horrible and sexual have to happen to Sally? God, I hope not. Mad Men will really and truly lose me then.

    • Peeve

      I think that Joan had every right to fire Scarlett after she lied to Joan’s face about what happened and then was gesturing to Dawn to shut up behind Joan’s back. I agree that Joan should have fired Scarlett behind closed doors, but the juvenile ‘shut up, Dawn!’ behavior on the stairs put her over the edge. Would have done it for me, too. Had Scarlett come clean when Joan asked her, I don’t think she’d have been fired. As a director, Harry shouldn’t have been able to reverse Joan’s decision. His ass should have been fired after his remarks about Joan and his tantrum in the director’s meeting, but none of the other directors had the balls.

      • MilaXX

        Harry brings in considerable cash to the firm. He’s a jerk, but they aren’t letting her go anytime soon.

        • Peeve

          I didn’t realize how much Harry had done until reading further on. I stand corrected!

          • MilaXX

            no I meant I still go places and I’m the only chip in the coookie

      • CozyCat

        They couldn’t have fired Harry for his remarks about Joan because he didn’t actually NAME her. He just made allusions to what happened, so technically he didn’t insult her. In fact, Pete actually made things worse with his outraged response. No one can admit what happened, so they can’t punish anyone for alluding to it because then they would have to publicly acknowledge that it happened.

        • formerlyAnon

          Nah. They could fire him for a trumped up reason – maybe just because he succumbs to temper fits. It’s not like he’s got civil service or union protection. But he does his job and makes the firm money, so he’s safe.

      • OrigamiRose

        Agree 100%. It wasn’t the timeclock fraud that led to the firing, but the lying and attempt to interfere in Joan’s conversation with Dawn. It would have been a clean, justified termination. I was furious that Harry was allowed to undermine her authority; even more furious when he walked out of the office with Roger and Bert and it was clear he had *not* been fired by them.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        Agreed. If one of my employees had done something like that to me, they’d be done, and I don’t think anyone in my office would say word one to me about it. It’s pretty outrageous behavior.

    • Peeve

      For the first time, I found myself actively HATING Don during his hypocritical behavior when Megan told him about her love scenes and in her dressing room afterward. I found myself hoping that the good Dr. would catch Don & Sylvia in bed when he came home from the hospital early.

      • CozyCat

        I hated him back in his marriage with Betty, when she was broken hearted and tried to discuss his infidelities and what was wrong with their marriage. (Remember her sitting in the pretty childlike party dress she had slept in, looking like a mess and begging him to talk about what was wrong.) It was her most mature moment and a turning point in her psychological development. And his response was to gaslight her and tell her it was all in her head and she was nuts, destroying any hope for their marriage and ensuring Betty’s development into a cold, bitter shrew.

        Don is a master of knowing the weaknesses of the women in his life and using those weakness to wound them and maintain control.

        • Peeve

          i missed the first season (I must go back and watch it!), and part of the 2nd before I started watching MM. I’ve kind of caught up somewhat by reading TLo posts about past history. So I’m a little late with the “Don hate”!

        • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

          I think Betty was a lot like Megan is now before Don got to her. Remember in that episode where he was telling Anna about her and he described her laugh? All I can remember thinking when I watched that the first time is, “Betty laughs?!” If I’ve heard her laugh, I can’t think of a single time when it’s been genuine. I don’t like Megan very much, but I hope she gets out before Don ruins her.

    • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

      I loved Roger and Bert’s scene with Harry, if only because it gave me strong Statler and Waldorf vibes, while still being true to their characters (Roger’s in that mode all the time but Bert gives good snark when he feels the need).

      • http://twitter.com/chylde chylde

        Bert’s socks!

        • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

          ALWAYS. Unless there’s gum, in which case someone is “fired.”

      • decormaven

        I loved our first real look into Bert’s new office. He’s no longer having to hang out in the conference room.

        • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

          Yes! I imagine his “Dream of the Fisherman’s Wife” has scandalized many a young secretary now that it’s basically in full view through the window, rather than hidden in the office.
          D’you suppose he’s already turned over the Rothko for profit?

          • decormaven

            Ooh! I just rewatched the scene. We can’t get a full look behind his desk; perhaps it is hung there? I also don’t see the Japanese screen that was in the former S&C office. It is nice to see the “Dream” piece in full view, though.

            • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gaby

              Psssst – I was rewatching last night’s episode (The Flood) with my boyfriend, and I noticed in the scene where Bert comes out of his office to chastise Pete and Harry for fighting, you can see the Rothko! Guess he’s going to wait for it to appreciate more – I don’t blame him, those paintings are worth ridiculous amounts of money now; a good investment indeed.

            • decormaven

              Good catch! I’ll have to rewatch the episode. I love continuity in set decoration- I knew that painting would make the move to the new office.

            • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gaby

              It’s a very short cut, right when Bert emerges from his office in horror. I had to pause to confirm that I saw it.

            • decormaven

              Just rewatched- bravo!

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1355741217 Melina Barbone Leone

          Did anyone find it odd that Roger was smoking in Bert’s office? I wasn’t sure it was his office until Harry came in and took off his shoes.

      • AnotherJulie

        I love Bert’s snark. Also love how everyone automatically removes their shoes when entering his office, without a second thought. Like that is perfectly acceptable in a Manhattan office.

        I know the writers dole out Roger’s great LOL lines frugally, but I missed Roger last night.

        • siriuslover

          But he did have that great line about firing Harry before he cashed the check.

          • AnotherJulie

            Yup – as usual the LOL line of the night!

          • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

            Yeah, I was thinking during the original board confrontation that Roger would not take insulting Joanie well, and that remark seemed to confirm it – I was almost hoping he would fire Harry, too (deserved work aside; Sal was fired for much less, in fact fired for not acting as Joan did, essentially).

            Oh man, don’t you wish Sal and Joan could have a moment now?

            I wonder if we’ll see more of the Roger/Joanie dynamic now that they’re BOTH divorced and closer in economic footing, even though they’re leagues from where they started (but maybe, enough for Roger to treat Joan as a person rather than a comfort-object). I don’t know if it’ll work any better now, but I feel like that’d be fresher ground to look into than “Don cheats on his wife and is a hypocrite… again.”

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Roger sold her out to Jaguar. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen again.

            • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

              TLo: “What surprises us is Roger’s reaction. Actually, strike that. We flat out don’t buy it and consider it a rare instance of the writing team dropping the ball. Oh sure, we got him saying he’d never pay for it and calling it “dirty business,” but that was it. We’re supposed to believe that Roger would let the mother of his child (and clearly the woman he loves) prostitute herself for a client with hardly a comment from him. Worse, we’re supposed to believe that he has virtually no problem with the fact that she went through with it, never batting an eye when she came in for her first impromptu partners’ meeting – as a partner. There was no reaction from him at all. That’s bullshit. Roger might be a royal dick about it (in fact, it’s likely) but to have no reaction to it at all strains credulity to the breaking point.”

              I’m almost certain that this is something the writers are sitting on and Roger will probably get some sort of scene with Joan, because they’ve barely been in the same room in episodes since, but for partner meetings.

      • CarolinLA

        I could just smell how bad Harry’s feet smell in that scene just given who he is. I half-expected them to comment on it.

    • dickylarue

      I got the feeling in that moment in the bar where SDCP & Ted with Peggy were commiserating over losing Heinz that they were setting up Ted taking the loss of Heinz a lot deeper than Don and Pete and perhaps that suggests that his little botique agency isn’t doing gangbusters. Wonder if a merger or Ted’s agency folding and Peggy coming back into the fold is in the cards? Just seemed they lingered on Ted’s bewilderment camera wise a bit much.

      As for the episode overall, I really didn’t understand Don’s reaction to Meghan’s scene other than it’s one of those moments when you’ve been dying to break up with someone who is very nice to you and you look for the smallest moment to use as the reason instead of being honest with them.

      The show is dreary and it feels as if it’s getting more dreary. I love this show, but it’s getting to the point where I feel like I’m tuning in each week to watch people get punished and the entertainment value is slipping little by little.

      • Ksagun13

        Yes to Don’s reaction!!! He’s grasping at that one tiny thing to blow up into something so much bigger. It’s really going to hit the fan when she realizes he’s been cheating on her and what a hypocrite he is.

        • dickylarue

          Yeah, I did it to a girl once upon a time when I was much younger and it was the worst thing I ever did. I had zero interest in her and just wanted her to disagree with me about anything so I could turn it into a “fight” to catapult an official breakup. It’s totally shitty. I couldn’t figure out why Don acted that way after watching the love scene unless that’s what his agenda was. The only other thought I had was he’s acting like the pimp/guy we saw in the flashback and his women are only for him and not to be shared…but I don’t buy that because with Midge and some of the other women he’s cheated with it was clear they had other men in their lives and he didn’t seek to control that.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            Don hates himself. He’s not doing well at work, and he’s guilty about the affair, and he sees Megan, successful and faithful and confident, and he wants to tear her down to make her feel as bad about herself as he does about himself.

            • formerlyAnon

              And I’m not convinced he even knows what he’s doing. His anger and self-loathing increase, he lashes out. Generally at a woman to whom he’s married. I’d believe that he might learn to recognize the situation building and prevent himself from attacking when he’s not happy. over time, if sufficiently motivated (which isn’t going to happen). But he’s probably incapable of getting the cause & effect relationship between his own self-loathing and his urge to attack/push away the women he’s supposed to be close to.

      • CozyCat

        Ted and Peggy were more depressed because they knew they had lost. When Don and Co walked in, they still had hope.

        My immediate thought when Ted made his comment about how small agencies got the crumbs was that the two agencies could merge. Not only would that bring Don and Peggy back to together, but it would be interesting to see of the employees of Ted’s firm are as disfunctional as SCD(P?)

        ps. I keep putting a question mark after the P. Is Lane’s name still on the firm, or have they dropped it.

        • dickylarue

          cozycat – pretty sure Price is still on the firm’s masthead. I am really starting to wonder if a merger where Peggy comes in as an equal and not a subordinate to Don is in the making.

        • sarahjane1912

          Sterling Draper Cooper Campbell isn’t it now? Happy to stand corrected.

    • ToniMacAttack

      I’m so tired of Don. I think I only still watch this show for everyone else. It just seems like the subtlety that is usually so present in mad Men is POOF-gone with Don’s scenes. Yes, we get it, the Whore-wife he actually called a whore is more Madonna in that she’s actually true to her marriage vows, while the Madonna-mistress is more whore than Madonna, sleeping with Don. With Don all women are one or the other, like you said, but he’s proved he is incapable of accurately calling one or the other, and the confusion with the status of both women probably ties back heavy-handily to his step mother who, in the scene with the Uncle, was both whore AND Madonna, heavily pregnant and sleeping with him.

      Ugh. Done. So done. More Joan, please.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        Agreed. I’m done with Don’s pain and hang-ups with women. Here’s hoping this affair results in Don having his cover blown or at the very least Megan leaving him.

    • Kimberly Southern-Weber

      I cannot WAIT for the fashion breakdown! Soooo much rich commentary in the clothing and environment. Great review – and I love the callback to the “basket of kisses” scene – truly one of the best Mad Men scenes – and really shows how far two of our heroines have come.

    • OrigamiRose

      It wasn’t the most eloquent, stylish or profound moment, but when Stan walked past Peggy with his middle finger raised, I cheered.

      • sarahjane1912

        Classic! Me too [on the inside]. Of course, I had to pause-and-rewind to see it because I was focusing too much on Peggy’s expression at the time, but YES! Totally. :)

    • VCR1

      Here’s a completely crazy thought: If Harry leaves SCDP, could Joan take over his job?

      • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

        I doubt it will happen, but fuck yes.

        • Golfkat

          She did have a great time helping him out reading all those scripts in the olden days. Which she also quite enjoyed, and was disappointed when she was relieved of the ‘burden’ of doing some actual meaningful work.
          I could see this happening.

          • http://www.facebook.com/mary.nease Mary Nease

            But right now she’s basically doing Lane’s former job, which happens to be important as well. She has her hands full.

      • CozyCat

        I don’t think so. At the beginning, Joan’s natural ability would have helped her move up fast. But since then, Harry has learned a lot about how to structure and sell deals. And he has developed the contacts in Hollywood and TV. Joan would have to start like Peggy, as a junior professional to gain the knowledge and experience to supplement her ability.

        She made a much better move stepping into Lane’s shoes where she does have the background and experience. Unfortunately, admin/support functions are always undervalued and tend to become female ghettos. (Anecdote alert: I worked with a group of guys who were horribly mismanaging a project because no one wanted to do unheralded admin tasks. They declared that the organization should hire an admin assistant for them, and that it should be a woman, because “women are better at administrative work than men.”)

      • AnotherJulie

        Somebody on another site commented that they ARE playing sisters. I don’t remember the surrounding details – perhaps TLo can recall – but that would explain why Joan’s mother inserted herself so aggressively into their plans.

        • Melanie

          It was never stated expressly, but based on Joan’s mother’s interest in Kate not “tying one on” the night before her interview with Avon, I assumed they were sisters as well.

        • MartyBellerMask

          Joan’s line about “How did you get younger than me?” sounds more like something you’d say to a sister or cousin than to a friend.

    • http://www.hyperboreans.com/heterodoxia The Heretic

      Excellent breakdown of the pitch. I couldn’t agree more on the comparison between Peggy’s and Don’s.

      Wonder what was the winning ad agency’s pitch?

    • Peeve

      I think another theme of this episode was “everyone’s a whore in some manner”. Don and Pete talking to a client they’d been asked not to deal with in Pete’s f*ckpad (very heavy-handed symbolism) and thereby screwing over the first client, Joan getting no respect as a partner because of how she got the partnership, Harry and what’s-his-face doing a little song to the head of Dow to get the project to rehabilitate Dow’s execrable public image, Megan getting paid to do a love scene (thereby “whoring” herself out to help Don feel justified about his affair), Joan’s friend Kate doing a little whoring around herself, Peggy and Ted using inside information for their own ends, Sylvia getting ‘paid’ for her affair, Harry and Scarlett (who I think are probably having an affair as well), the “Swingers”, who are at least honest about their actions, as was Megan.

    • Golfkat

      I think it was so perfect that the initial secret Ketcup meeting, took place in Pete’s lousy apartment which was bought for that very purpose – cheating on someone (Trudy, Heinz Beans).

      Also, Don is obviously going to get caught. Every time he meets up with neighbour-wife I think it’s about to happen. Also, his reply to Pete’s creepy offer to use his seedy apartment was fittingly “I live in the city”. Yeah, he lives there and cheats there alright.

      • Golfkat

        Accidentally ‘deleted’ my own comment, so now it just says “Guest”. Well, I wrote that one.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        Pete’s apartment is so gross. I can’t believe they took clients there.

        • Lisa_Co

          As the Heinz guy left Pete’s, he licked his ring finger and started taking off his wedding band. So he was personally as well as professionally,too.

      • sarahjane1912

        Yes! The double-cheating. Good spot. :)

    • http://marshmallowjane.com/ marshmallowjane

      Wow. My perceptions of Joan, then and now, are very different. I’ve always thought she handled herself well in the office. I worked in offices back then, and women didn’t get promoted in a natural fashion. There was rarely a place to go. Whereas, men were groomed to move up.

      I’ve thought Joan handled her curvy body in a classy manner. She walks around with sexual ammunition with those curves and tight clothes. Yet, she has always been proper. She seems to have a confidence about herself that other women don’t have. She can handle what got gave her. She wears tight clothes but we rarely see cleavage. She has been kind to other women in the office. I’ve enjoyed interactions between Joan and Peggy in particular, who fight for their jobs in a different way, and there is a mutual respect.

      The problem is that the partners came to Joan, begging her to bale them out. She did not offer her services. They came to her. She negotiated the partnership. She was already running the office; she kept confidences. She is trustworthy. The secretarial staff supports the sales people and without them, nothing can run. Her position in the office is important, and everybody knows it. She has never slept around. In other words, a curvy woman in a tight dress isn’t a slut. So I enjoy this portrayal.

      I’ve never seen her as a bitch. She’s an assertive woman. This situation with the secretaires was a great example of how Joan does her job. She doesn’t miss a beat. She knew that the secretary was lying to her. That was the problem. When she tried to get to the truth, that secretary was behind Joan’s back, signaling to Don’s secretary to support her. That was the “fireable” action. Don’s secretary walks a fine line, trying to get along with her peer who put her job in jeopardy. But Joan is in a position where she must show her power, or no one will respect her. And that is all I’ve ever seen her do.

      Is she flawless? No. Would I want Joan as a friend? Yes. As a workmate? Yes. As a boss? Yes. I think she’s a great character. She’s truly an enigma. She is a pleasing combination of confidence and vulnerability. She is not vindictive at all. She is trying to hold her place in a business run by men who are inebriated half the time. She is clear-minded when others are not.

      • AnotherJulie

        Agree the workplace was/is tougher for women.. but I cannot defend how Joan has always, every step of the way, used her sexuality…. both to win over men and intimidate women. Also, I must respectfully disagree that she is kind to other women.

        And what has it gotten her? Remember this is the 60s: She is divorced, a single mom, past her prime age-wise, has had many failed relationships, was raped then married her rapist, has had at least 2 abortions, and the whole office knows she is a prostitute.

        In the plus column, she has the title of Partner.

        • formerlyAnon

          She also has the money that goes along with being partner – more important than a lot of other stuff to a single mom who knows what kind of money most women make – and the ambivalent we-just-won’t-think-about-the-details positive regard, still, of some of the guys. It’s not like any of them, EVER, were going to see her as anything other than a woman and former secretary (with the sexual and not-as-good-as baggage that comes with.)

          • AnotherJulie

            True. She has the money. But using her sexuality to get everything she has is not making her particularly happy.

            • formerlyAnon

              True. But I don’t think any of Joan’s working woman paths were going to be terribly happy, once it became clear her marriage wasn’t going to work. At least she can be unhappy and support her child well without living with a man whom she didn’t respect. ETA: I do think Joan can reach an equilibrium where she’s happy with her life, I think at heart she’s practical to a fault and will be content with what she can achieve, even if it’s imperfect.

              One of the reasons I’m fascinated with Peggy’s story line is that I wonder if they’re going to let her be happy with her lot. I think she expects more from life than Joan does, at heart. (Or maybe she’s just generationally different.) She’s going to face plenty of sexism and she’s almost certainly not going to wind up with the kind of relationship she spent the first 17 or 18 years of her life being conditioned to think will make her happy.

            • AnotherJulie

              I share your hope that Joan reaches an equilibrium w/ her life. After all, she is only 37!

              I have higher hopes for Peggy. Being 10ish years younger than Joan gives her a big advantage. She seems to know the difference between using her talent and using her body.

        • http://marshmallowjane.com/ marshmallowjane

          This show reminds me why the cultural revolution occurred. Many young people did not have the stomach for living a fake life. The behavior of the men is far worse than anything the women do in Mad Men. Don is a despicable person, at least so far. I see Joan as someone trying to survive. She is not manipulative. I thought her comments to Peggy about her dress were helpful. Peggy dresses better than she used to. She was dowdy. I guess I feel compassion for Joan. I might be wrong–please forgive if I sound insulting–but I think a woman with her curves and tight clothes is difficult to like. (I am not curvy.)

          • formerlyAnon

            I think she IS manipulative – but in the way society expected her to be and BECAUSE she is a survivor. She’s more capable than many, but that alone wasn’t going to get her very far from the typing pool.

          • AnotherJulie

            (Sorry if this is a duplicate post… Discus snafu..)

            I am curvy and was raised (in the 60s) to be aware of the difference between being attractive vs. sexually provocative. Joan has obv chosen the latter track. Plenty of women did not.

            And I must respectfully disagree again – I think Joan is the definition of manipulative. She manipulates men AND women with her sexuality.

            • http://marshmallowjane.com/ marshmallowjane

              I think she is just naturally a sexual person. Although I must say that a woman can be built like that and not be super sexual. Her tight clothing makes her look sexual even if she’s sharpening a pencil. It has been my opinion watching the show that she doesn’t seem promiscuous. She hasn’t slept with Don; right? Why not? She turns plenty of men down. She really wanted her marriage to work.

              I wouldn’t put labels on her because she slept with that guy on behalf of the company. I felt like she was taking one for the team, as odd as that sounds. Again, this wasn’t her idea. She didn’t want to disappoint her coworkers and friends but she was smart enough to negotiate a partnership out of the deal. I think her position has the value of a partner.

              I think I missed one of the seasons. I moved and couldn’t get the show for awhile and tried to have the show recorded and when I missed the first episode, I thought I’d catch up on ON DEMAND, but the show wasn’t available. And whenever I’ve tried to catch up, the episode I’m watching looks familiar. But maybe there is something I’m missing.

              I’m truly surprised at this feedback. But now I’m curious. I will watch more closely to see if it is my perceptions that are inaccurate. Or maybe her character is written so that we each see what we want to see. Our opinions and perceptions reveal much about ourselves more than anything else.

            • AnotherJulie

              Must respectfully disagree again! (sorry)

              Keep in mind Joan would be 83 today. Most mainstream 83-year old women I know do not have pasts like Joan’. She would definitely have been considered promiscuous for that time.

              So, I just can’t defend a woman who “takes one for the team”. I’m no prude – but just think that all women (and men!!) should treat themselves, including their sexuality, with respect.

              It bothers me Joan doesn’t because she IS capable, smart, poised, gorgeous. In other words, she is selling herself short by always defaulting to the lowest common denominator, i.e. her sexuality.

            • http://twitter.com/LadyMoppet J. L. A.

              Remember though, Joan states that her mother raised her to be admired. Her looks and sexuality were the areas she thought she was the strongest in for so long. I don’t think Joan realized how smart and capable she was until she worked with Harry on the scripts.

              I think she’s been afraid to rely on her smarts because she’s still learning that she’s got them. Meanwhile, her beauty is fading and she’s getting older. I think that’s why she slept with the Jaguar guy. Essentially, to get the most out of her looks before they left her because she’s still not sure she’s got the intelligence to stay afloat.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              I think Joan knows how smart she is, but you’re dead right about how she was raised. Her mother continues to be awful.

            • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

              Everyone has made excellent points on this topic and I agree with marshmallowjane, as I tried explaining to our esteemed moderators earlier, we each WILL see the characters how we choose to see them, there can be no right or wrong in that.

              @AnotherJulie I respectfully disagree, (lol) about most mainstream 83 year old women having pasts like Joan. I think it’s just the opposite, considering the times that they came of age in. You shoulda met my 83 year old grandma; a beacon of virtue and goodness that sang every week in the church choir. You’d never guess her various adventures from when she was a young thing, that I won’t mention here. Let’s just say she wasn’t an angel.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              A woman who remained unmarried into her 30s, kept her career after she married, and then divorced would not have been mainstream, though.

            • Zaftiguana

              What does “mainstream” mean, and how many 83-year-old women do you think are busting out with all of their most sordid secrets in their old age?

            • AnotherJulie

              LOL – By mainstream I just meant non-celebrity. (The minute I say “Women didn’t act like that back then”- someone says “Nothing has changed!! What about Elizabeth Taylor?”)

              Of course some 83-year olds were wild things in their day! And good for them!

              But I stand by my intended point, which was that in the 60s, certain behaviors (including Joan’s) would have resulted in being labelled promiscuous and judged harshly by most people- 50+ yrs. ago.

              It is difficult for young women in 2013 to fully relate to the mindset back then. Someone like Joan who “took one for the team” and got paid was a prostitute, and judged harshly. Add in the other affairs, status as a divorced Mom, etc etc… Remember that poor divorcee in season one and how those woman attacked her?

            • Zaftiguana

              I think you’re falling into the trap of assuming that the vast majority of everyday women in past times with more traditional mores all strictly obeyed said mores, when in reality a great many of them did not. They were just a whole lot more likely to keep it an extremely closely guarded secret. I think Peggy is an excellent example of this. How many people who know her in 1968, let alone as a senior citizen in 2013, would guess at her past?

              You keep saying Joan IS a prostitute, and she’s not. Not by their standards and not by ours. Joan is not a sex worker. Joan is someone who used her sexuality to benefit the company and demanded a share of the rewards. It’s fair to make an analogy, as the show clearly does, between her behavior and sex work. Just as they have done with most of the female characters in the show who operate in a system that makes them financially reliant in some way upon men who see them as objects. But when you keep saying she’s a prostitute or she chose prostitution, I think it further serves to illustrate how off base you are about the sexual, personal, and professional lives of these characters.

            • AnotherJulie

              Wow. I would prefer not to be told how “off base” I am (your last sentence) which I consider rather rude in a public forum where I am politely voicing my opinion on a TV show.

              I must also respectfully disagree with your refusal to label Joan’s actions prostitution. Obviously Joan is not a streetwalker nor does she work in a brothel. But if someone has sex knowingly and willingly with a stranger for the sole purpose of being paid, I’m not sure what else to call it. For crying out loud – even Don Draper, who has the morals of a gnat, tried to stop her! I have no idea whose standards you don’t think I have met (in calling it prostitution) but I suspect that you are playing with semantics.

              We have both gotten away from my main point, in 3rd paragraph of above, which was that these behaviors were judged more harshly back then. I stand by that point.

              I do agree with your first paragraph (that obviously not every woman in past times obeyed all the mores). But they were definitely judged for not doing so.

            • Zaftiguana

              We all prefer not to be disagreed with, in public or in private, but that doesn’t make reasoned disagreement rude. Considering how much you’re disagreeing with people here and also letting them know how little you think they understand the time period, etc., I think that’s more than a little hypocritical and hypersensitive.

              A prostitute is someone who contracts a sex act with a buyer in exchange for money. That is not what Joan did. Joan agreed to sleep with a man who expressed sexual interest in her and implied that their might be non-financial favors in store for others who might help him make that connection. Joan then insisted on a position of authority within the company that would benefit from her actions. It’s very similar to prostitution, as are the behaviors of a lot of other women on this show who are operating in an extremely imperfect world as already described. The show has a long history of exploring the Madonna/Whore dichotomy and how it’s affected most of the female characters and their behavior and relationships. That doesn’t mean they’re all prostitutes.

              And I disagree with that point. I don’t believe for a second that Joan would be judged LESS harshly for cheating on her war veteran husband with her married employer and bearing his lovechild than she is for agreeing to a liaison with a client that massive benefitted everyone at that company. A liaison that they lobbied her to take part in. I don’t buy that for a second, and that’s putting aside all of the other fallout of letting Roger have official access to their child and choosing to rely on someone so unreliable for her financial wellbeing (and I’m curious, since you’re so eager to label Joan a prostitute, how you would see her being financially maintained by Roger in return for their sexual encounter on a public street).

            • AnotherJulie

              I have NO problem whatsoever being disagreed with in a respectful way. I will repeat that I think your calling my opinions off base was rude. Then, you tell me I was being a hypocrite and hypersensitive- I believe this goes beyond “reasoned disagreement” (your term). My term? Rude.

              What makes MM and this forum fascinating is the large age range of its viewers and commenters. We all watch the same show, but feel differently about characters, their actions etc. based on many things – age being a big factor. Things are so drastically different today that the idea that drinking, smoking, overt racism, sexism, anti-semitism, homophobia etc etc were practiced out in the open must seem like absolute fiction to younger viewers! Yes, I have said that some commenters, esp. younger ones, may not understand the time period. This is just a statement of fact, not an insult.

              Clearly we will continue to disagree here. Joan had mutually agreed-upon, pre-arranged sex with a stranger/ buyer (your term!) in a hotel room in direct exchange for a title and money. That makes this an act of prostitution, and Yes, that makes “those who lobbied” her pimps. I wish it weren’t true!! But it is! I agree that the other women on the show are NOT prostitutes (with the exception of some of Don’s encounters)

              Joan would have been judged harshly in both scenarios in your last paragraph – but in my opinion, people in the 60s would have had an easier time with an accidental pregnancy than a deliberate act of prostitution.

              We will continue to disagree on the Roger/ baby piece too. I feel FINE with her CHILD being financially supported by his father, negotiated by Joan – whether he was conceived thru a quickie on a public street or during their affair. Hopefully he will never find out about his conception OR how he lived such a nice lifestyle.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              It is not rude; it’s disagreement, something you don’t mind doing vehemently and repeatedly. Let people have their opinions, even if they contradict yours. Also: every single comment does not require a response. Please let other people breathe in this comments section.

            • AnotherJulie

              Thank you, sincerely, for explaining the unspoken rules of commenting, of which I am just too old to have a good grasp! (I grew up during MM timeframe). It appears I have inadvertently broken them all…

              I watch MM in a large, very diverse group – age-wise, etc etc. The expression of VERY different opinions is what makes the evening so much fun (as we drink 60s-appropriate cocktails, laugh uproariously, yell at the TV..) But I have been naive.. I should not use your comment stream as an extension of my friends’ kitchens… commenting through quickly typed sentences to people who don’t know me is fraught with all sorts of issues /misinterpretations /hurt feelings etc. …. I am terrible at this.

              If I comment in the future (must admit a little gun-shy) I will try to follow your advice above, which I truly appreciate. Consider my hand slapped! But can’t wait for recap of last night’s show!

            • http://howtofaint.tumblr.com/ How to Faint

              Ha. Most 83-year-old women you know aren’t going to tell you if they did have a past like Joan’s. That’s just not how they roll. God knows, I have a couple of great-aunts and friends of the family that I would bet money and firstborns have a pretty racy past but they would never, ever own up to it, much less tell me (or anyone else) about it.

        • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

          When Joan started working in the 50s, sexuality was the primary tool women used, both at the office and at home, to get what they wanted. That was pretty much the only avenue available to women, period. In the early part of the show, Joan was following the rules set out by her society to a tee. Using her sexuality is what she was *supposed* to do. The rules have changed, though–which is the entire point of the show–and Joan is struggling to figure out what the new rules are. I don’t think it’s fair to judge her by 2013 standards where a woman who uses her sexuality to her advantage is bad or wrong. A woman’s entire value was set by that 60 years ago. A woman who tried to use her brain was just going to hit a brick wall.

          • formerlyAnon

            I mostly agree, but I differ in that the brain mattered a lot if there was anywhere to get (in a lot of work situations, there was nowhere to go. All the jobs were dead ends.) It just had to be wrapped up in an attractive package, most of the time. (And in a lot of situations, the sexuality was a double-eged sword. Too sexy was worse than not sexy at all.) You needed the appearance to get attention, you got people to rely on you by producing reliably.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Agreed.

          • AnotherJulie

            I think we are making excuses for Joan’s behavior by blaming the times. Yes, some things were different than today- but I am old enough to remember this timeframe…. I knew plenty of working women who did NOT sashay around the office demanding that attention be focused on their bodies, bully other women who were not as attractive or well dressed, or sleep with a disgusting pig for $$.

            As Joan’s friend Kate said to Joan, Now it is here for the taking (as a partner etc.).

            So what does Joan do? Spends her evening making out with some random kid in a nightclub, to reassure herself her sexuality still works.

            Joan is now financially set. I would like to see her treat herself with some respect.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Why would Joan need to reassure herself her sexuality still works? Her problem in this episode was precisely that it works too well.

              Joan hasn’t sashayed around the office demanding that the focus be on her body or bullying women over their appearance in a long time, and the partners put Joan’s back against the wall on the Jaguar deal. Joan didn’t instigate the Jaguar situation, and the alternative was for her company to go under and for her to lose her job. She’s a single mom. What else was she supposed to do? Choose to put herself and her kid on the street? Joan took lemons and made lemonade.

              The point of making out with that young guy at the Electric Circus was to show that society has changed and instead of staying exactly the same and being uncomfortable and miserable, Joan has decided to change with it. That’s why when she went into work the next day, she handed over the keys to her old job to someone else. Like a lot of other characters on this show in the past, Joan’s display of sexuality had more to do with what was going on elsewhere in her life–in this case, at work–than about how pretty she felt, and if you think that’s all Joan cares about, you haven’t been paying attention to her character.

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=659113572 Suzanne Szlaius

              The way I interpreted ‘why Joan needs to reassure herself’ about her sexuality is this. First, when the series started, Joan’s body type was more the ideal, curvy Marilyn Monroe, Jane Russell, etc. Now we are (on the show) in the era of “Twiggy” where Meghan’s body type is considered the ideal, many of the new fashions (micro minis, go-go boots, the cute little dresses that I associate with old pictures of Twiggy, etc) were created for the slim body type rather than someone with Joan’s curves. I could be wrong on this because this was far more my parents’ era than mine, so I’m looking at it without having lived through either era. Furthermore, I think that in that time, 37 was considered a lot ‘older’ than it is now, if not a downright ‘matronly’ age (as beautiful as Joan is, and she doesn’t look 37, she still is very out of place with the younger crowd). TLo expressed what I had been thinking about Joan looking so out of place on that couch.

            • AnotherJulie

              Yes! Joan (who is gorgeous) looked like Kate’s older friend/ sister on that couch in the club. Ditto in the phone cafe and in the cab.

              When she first greeted Kate in the apt., she said something like When did you become so much younger?

              So it is still my opinion that Joan is trying to reassure herself that she’s still got it.

            • AnotherJulie

              Wow. When I disagree in a public forum, I usually say “I respectfully disagree” rather than insulting a commenter (“you haven’t been paying attention to Joan’s character”) but whatever.

              I respectfully disagree with most of your comments above, as you do with mine. It’s just a TV show!

              Anyway, just one more comment: In response to your question “What else was she supposed to do?” (i.e. you feel Joan had no choice but be a prostitute to support her son): She could accept support from the child’s father, Roger, who continually offered, and whose offers she rejected.

              Obv this scenario is not ideal! …nor was her choice to have unprotected sex with Roger, which resulted in getting pregnant w/ his baby. Also, she chose not to have abortion #3.

              I use the term sashaying to describe her walk – which continues to the present.

            • formerlyAnon

              Everything else aside: support from Roger, who’s had one heart attack, who she’s watched behave weakly and unfaithfully in relationship after relationship, and who’s not legally obligated to her or the child, is a weak reed compared to a job. Not to mention Joan’s personal history doesn’t encourage her to trust a man in the long run.

            • AnotherJulie

              I have the utmost confidence in Joanie’s ability, as a whipsmart, capable woman (and for whom Roger has deep feelings) to negotiate a settlement from Roger, regardless of (actually because of) his heart attacks. She did just fine in negotiating a partnership! Roger is the father. Roger offered, several times. Roger is extremely wealthy and throws disproportionate amts. of $$ at everyone. It would have been like taking candy from a baby!

              I admit I cannot understand why you continue to defend her actions as a prostitute. I must again respectfully disagree.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Well then respectfully, I feel like you’ve missed some things. You state that Joan should have some self respect, but then recommend she take money from Roger. Joan never wanted Roger for his money, and she wouldn’t be able to respect herself if she turned what she had with him into that. He may see their relationship differently, but Joan loved him. It’s worth noting that if Roger had stood up for Joan in the Jaguar situation, she never would have gone through with it. As it was, the whole thing with Herb was as much a fuck you to Roger as it was a move to become partner.

              In this episode, I think Joan started to realize that her sexuality was no longer getting her anywhere. If anything, it’s a liability. The world is different, and I think Joan will be different in the future.

            • AnotherJulie

              I honestly don’t see why taking child support from the father of your child shows a lack of self respect. To me, that is the logical step to take. As I said in an above post to formerlyAnon, Joan is more than capable of negotiating a settlement from Roger for their child. Instead, she chose another path.

              I know this wasn’t your intent but you have provided MORE evidence of how she uses her sexuality (in my opinion) inappropriately. Again my opinion – but having sex with one person to get back at someone else is pathetic and wrong. I hope you are not defending Joan for that.

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              This is why I said you don’t get Joan. Joan loved Roger for himself, not for his money, and he made it clear that he never loved her, viewed her only as a “great lay,” and ultimately sold her out to a sleaze ball in order to get an account. He broke her heart and made her feel like a prostitute. She’d rather make her own way by sleeping with someone who means nothing to her than by making a deal where she’s beholden to Roger, who got the best of her and still treated her like a whore.

              The fact that Joan used the scenario with Jaguar to get back, in some small way, at Roger really doesn’t change the fact that she didn’t have a whole lot of other options. Think what you will of how she got her partnership, crawling to the no account asshole who treated her like dirt to ask for money was beneath her.

            • AnotherJulie

              This is why MM is such a great show. Viewers watch the same show, and see it totally differently.

              Again, I disagree. How is Joan crawling to ask Roger for money? He has offered. It’s his child. I am confident that Joan would figure out a way to not remain beholden to him.

              Even if she did have to beg, which she doesnt, receiving child support is not “beneath” anyone! But apparently being a prostitute is not “beneath her”. You stated Roger treated her like a common whore. Hello?

              Perhaps I am being naive. I have always truly thought R has feelings for Joan and would do right by her. Besides, he is an extremely wealthy man who bought his ex wife Jane a new Manhattan apt. without blinking, for going out to dinner with him…. Sorry… nothing will convince me she is supporting her child the right way.

              It is a good thing MM is the only recap blog I read… no more energy for this!

            • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

              Roger has been pretty straightforward about his feelings toward Joan and they don’t extend beyond the sexual. Yes, Roger bought his ex wife an expensive apartment without blinking and is generally pretty free with his money. He gives people money, though, in place of having real relationships. He’d give Joan a payout because he knows he can’t give her anything else, and Joan is unwilling to accept that (she wants love, not money) or to be on par with gold digging Jane.

              Look at it this way: she’s either a gold digger or a prostitute (which aren’t actually all that different), and in Joan’s way of seeing things, she’d rather be a prostitute because at least a prostitute earned the money on her own steam and there are no strings attached.

            • 3hares

              It seems like you and Joan are just completely different in which thing you find impossible and which thing you find do-able. For Joan, depending on Roger to support her son is impossible. She needs to be independent of him, and she can deal with sleeping with the Jaguar guy in exchange for a partnership to get it. For you, depending on Roger for support makes sense and sleeping with somebody in exchange for a partnership is impossible. Trying to argue why Joan was wrong to think her way is like her trying to argue you out of your own position. It probably just comes down to a slightly different set of fears and priorities.

            • AnotherJulie

              Well said!

              I have taken my initial thoughts way off course (i.e. Joan using her sexuality for for everything).

              I grew up in the 60s. Obviously my language is harsh and judgmental to younger women, who are watching TV in 2013 through a lens of current cultural viewpoints – rather than how Joan as a 37year old would have been seen / judged in 1968..

              Today, using one’s sexuality however one chooses is seen as empowering by many young women and men. In the 60s, it was not.

              I am not defending the 60s!! But like it or not – back then, the Joans of the world were viewed as bitches by most women, and whores by most men. I am glad things are different now.

            • Zaftiguana

              To negotiate a formal legal settlement would mean putting Roger on the record as Kevin’s father, which opens up tremendous personal and professional issues for both of them. If you think Joan is dealing with a lot of shit at the office for sleeping with a client to secure an account, just imagine if it was common knowledge that she’d had Roger’s child out of wedlock while married to a field surgeon off serving his country. Again, it’s not that simple.

            • AnotherJulie

              I know it’s not simple, but parts of it are: Why shouldn’t Roger pay child support for his own child? He has offered!! This is a man who just bought his ex-wife Jane a new apt. in Manhattan for going out to dinner with him!

              I dont see him dragging Joan through the mud in a public way. Why would it have to be common knowledge?

            • Zaftiguana

              I’m sure he would pay it. And then he, not her husband at the time, would be legally recognized as Kevin’s father. He’d also have the right to visitation. And at the point that things are that official, the chances that no one is going to find out are vanishingly slim. Right now, the only two people who know are Roger and Joan, and jeopardizing that and allowing someone as erratic as Roger that level of access to her life and child is HUGE. I can fully understand why she wouldn’t even entertain the possibility. I actually think it shows how smart she is.

            • AnotherJulie

              Agree and never said it was simple. But I believe still preferable to it being common knowledge that she is a straight up prostitute. Just my opinion!

            • Zaftiguana

              Roger’s help isn’t reliable, and it comes with a huge non-financial price tag to both Joan and her son. It’s not that simple.

            • AnotherJulie

              Agree. That’s why I said it wasn’t ideal. I was saying in my opinion, it was preferable to being a straight up prostitute.

              But others see it differently. In Joan’s mind, what she did was quicker and more efficient: like ripping off a bandaid.

            • 3hares

              I agree that Joan wasn’t at fault for getting propositioned by Jaguar, but I don’t remember any implication that the company would go under or that she’d lose her job over Jaguar. She made what she felt was a smart financial decision to support herself and her son.

            • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

              There was no implication that the company was going to go under. “Well, I’m sorry to hear that,” was her cool reply when Pete told her. It was seen as a hit to the company to not land the account, and a boon if they landed it, but the company itself was not on the line.

            • http://www.deborahwiles.com/ GoodSally

              I think Joan is lonely… that’s what I took away from the scene at the Electric Circus. She’s a single parent living with her mother, likely not dating or in a relationship with anyone right now. How her life has changed.

            • Zaftiguana

              What’s wrong with a single woman making out with someone at a nightclub? I’ve done that plenty, and I respect myself just fine.

            • AnotherJulie

              Nothing is wrong with it in general. I was commenting on what it meant in the whole trajectory of Joan’s life. She doesn’t respect herself and that scene on the couch in the club was sad and pathetic. That was not simply a woman having fun.

        • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

          She doesn’t just have the title of partner — she has a job that she obviously likes and is interested in and earns her own money with which she supports herself and her baby. In the 1960s. Many women in this show have (shitty) husbands or boyfriends. She has a LIFE. Her being divorced, or her abortions, or the fact that some people think of her as just a prostitute — none of that does ANYTHING to weaken my admiration for her. It probably weakens her admiration for herself, but that’s her tragedy.

          As for “using her sexuality” — Joan is a strong, charismatic personality and she has used her sex appeal a lot like Don has always done, for smoothing over situations and pushing along the career in which she is an absolutely brilliant professional. The differences come down to the penis factor. Don mostly needed the approval of male bosses & clients who could bask in his charms (remember, men have often commented on how handsome/charming he is) without wanting to conquer him physically. As a man, he was never at as much risk of anyone forgetting his talents or disrespecting him because of his appeal. As a (straight) man, he was neither expected to be the plaything of bosses and clients (you are pretty, ergo you are for sleeping with); nor was he ever derided for using his sex appeal to win people over in a business setting (oops, sorry, I forgot it’s called “charisma” when a man does it). These are all privileges that Joan never had.

          The Jaguar episode happened because neither the sleazy car executive nor the SCDP partners (on some level) could accept that Joan is anything but boobs, and it’s that tragic & humiliating realization that made her go forward with something she saw as demeaning. To me, that deal cheapened everyone involved BUT her. Unlike many others on this show who slept with people for various reasons and gains, she hurt no one but herself.

          Also, yes, she’s often been unkind and she has not displayed a lot of female solidarity in the workplace. She is a well-rounded character.

          • AnotherJulie

            I know your comment is meant to refute some of my points, but you may be surprised that I agree with most of it.

            In your first paragraph: I’m wondering how you interpreted that scene with Joan talking in bed w/Kate the morning after the nightclub. To me it was pretty obvious that Joan’s perceived career success is not making her happy and she doesn’t think her life is all that great. Is your point that you admire her, even if she doesn’t admire herself?

            Second paragraph: I agree 100%.

            The rest: In my opinion, the Jaguar deal DID cheapen her. Even if she hurt no one but herself (as you said), that still means she hurt herself – right?

            This entire comment thread has really been thought-provoking. I have been surprised so many women are so quick to defend Joan… when I don’t think many would tolerate a job for 1 day w/Joan as supervisor… “unkind” and not “displayed alot of female solidarity” indeed!

            • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

              Well, I may not want to work for Joan, or work for Peggy, or marry Trudy, but seeing their life makes me understand their choices and admire their strengths. I would definitely not want to marry Don but seeing his life makes me feel for him some of the time rather than just judge his cheating ass. That’s fiction for you.

              Is your point that you admire her, even if she doesn’t admire herself?

              Definitely. TLo have discussed how in the early seasons, Joan saw herself first and foremost as a party girl who was looking for a great marriage. She knew she was brilliant at her job and was proud of it but was also quick to dismiss the importance of it because it didn’t fit with her preconception of what a woman’s life should be. It took the loss of her job and a lot of other trials to make her realize her career was important to her — and she is still struggling not to feel like a failure for being single. I find that struggle fascinating and moving and I see her as someone who needs her mental settings some more to see how awesome she is (which probably won’t happen because this is Mad Men).

              Even if she hurt no one but herself (as you said), that still means she hurt herself – right?

              It was definitely a sad episode in her life. But even if I saw the Jaguar thing as a huge mistake, I still wouldn’t say she brought it on herself by “using her sexuality” all the time. It was brought on by the coldness, greed, and meanness of people around her, and by her belonging to a disenfranchised group, much like Sal who was also expected to sleep with a client. She has been more of a professional than anyone else in that office.

      • fursa_saida

        I do think that early in the show she absolutely had a bit of a Queen Bee/Mean Girl thing going on. I remember her specifically subtly insulting Peggy’s looks and making loads of little power plays over the other “girls” when it wasn’t always necessary. And that’s just off the top of my head; I’m sure there were more examples. I never had a real problem with it, because it made a lot of sense for the position she was in, but I still think her behavior has definitely changed drastically from the first season.

    • CatherineRhodes

      Thank you for the sophisticated analysis. You’re on top of your game!

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1582777135 Melanie K. Morgan

      TLo, I really want to hear what you all have to say about the invitation to swing. Don’s reaction was priceless!

    • Girl_With_a_Pearl

      Loved Ginsberg when he was trying to figure out what Stan was up to and what Project K meant.

      • Frank_821

        it would have been funny if they called it Project Special K :p

      • snarkykitten

        Project KILL MACHINE!

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        I loved Don looking like he can’t decide which is more annoying, Ginsberg with his drama or Bob with his fake friendliness.

      • Zaftiguana

        I literally laughed out loud when he made what I though was a joke about tin foil on the windows and then Don walked in and there was…actual tin foil on the windows. Hilarious.

    • Inspector_Gidget

      I have to agree with your reaction to the previous episode. Watching Don screw up Affair #3701 is just getting tedious. All of his flings follow the same pattern, so it’s no longer interesting to watch him spiral into a blowout with his wife. He’s reached that point as a character where we realize he will never improve, never learn from past mistakes, so watching him continue to make them is more grueling than riveting.

      On the other hand, watching Joan work the pickup angle and get her and her desperate friend laid was loads of fun. I haven’t been thrilled with her character since the whole “suddenly a partner” arc (Indecent Proposal? Really?) but it was great to see a spark of the old girl.

      it is a bit funny that Don remains stuck in the same story arc over and over, while everyone else gets pushed into these radical personality changes. They need to come up with something new for him, pronto, and not just another wife and another set of fuck buddies.

    • Frank_821

      Another funny thought entered my head. I was thinking about the actress who play Dawn. Basically she finally got a real story thread going. Megan finally got a a story thread going in To Have and to Hold. Of course I don’t think Matt Weiner was hinting at any four-somes to her…lol

    • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

      When they started the new agency, to be a partner they all had a buy in, right? I am guessing now people are just going to be promoted without the buy in??

      • Melanie

        In any business that has “partners,” there’s a buy-in. As TLo pointed out upthread, there’s nothing to suggest that Harry isn’t willing to pay the money.

        • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

          Right, so was Harry willing to buy in??? I remember Don covering Pete’s share and Pete struck me as more well off than Harry or is he just hoping to be promoted sans buy in… wasn’t the buy in $50,000??

          • Melanie

            My guess is Harry’s more well-off now than Pete was when he needed Don to cover him.

            • http://classversussass.com Class Versus Sass

              Thanks I was just wondering, I guess I missed the upthread

        • reebism

          Yes, but there’s plenty to suggest that the partners don’t want to work with Harry. Harry’s very good at dealing with clients within a predictable range of interactions — sell airtime, pitch shows, talk about shows — but the minute something goes off-script, he’s caught completely off-guard, and half the time we see him alienating potential clients by judging the pitch incorrectly. Partners do a lot more than supply money to the firm — they spend their entire waking life selling the firm. Considering his inability to keep himself from making a fool out of himself the second that any conversation goes unscripted, Harry would be a liability no matter how much money he paid the firm.

          Not only does Harry lack savoir faire, he can’t even spell it.

          • Laylalola

            He’s also someone whose perspective of himself is questionable — Harry thinks he’s another Bert, and Bert says Harry’s nothing like him in any way. And he’s not.

      • jeeplibby02

        Not quite. Don, Roger, and Bert offered Lane a partnership to entice him to agree to fire them after the Brits sold Sterling Cooper to McCann Ericson, and they wanted out of their contracts. Pete demanded a partnership when he was able to bring the additional $8M in billings needed to make SCDP feasible at the outset. After SCDP lost Lucky Strike, and the partners had to put up personal funds to keep the agency afloat, Pete did not have the $50K he was expected to contribute, so Don paid his share. Don felt he owed Pete, because of the aerospace account Pete had to give up when the vetting process threatened to expose Don’s true identity.

    • crash1212

      Didn’t Joan bring the Jaguar account to the company? Disregarding HOW she did that, seems to me they wouldn’t have that account without her and I wonder why nobody brings that up. I suspect it’s worth as much as the little TV show that asshat put together.

      • formerlyAnon

        I’d say nobody brings it up because everybody involved wants to pretend the little quid pro quo with the Jaguar guy never happened. Just because they think it was justified doesn’t mean they’re proud of it.

    • fursa_saida

      Loved this episode. Loved Peggy outpitching Don (though I liked his campaign better, she sold hers better); loved Dawn + Joan; loved/hated Harry’s whole display; loved that Megan finally acknowledged that Don’s been being a total ass about her success; loved Ginsberg’s thirty seconds of screen time (I know I’m in a minority here but I adore him and want more Ginsberg basically all the time).

      I think Dawn has big things coming. As I said in a comment below, I think the pivotal moment when Joan decided Dawn could and should take on more responsibility was when she answered the question “fair to whom?” with “the company.” She showed she not only could think about the big picture, but specifically tailored her response to it; no blaming Scarlet, no excuses, just considering the deficit and how to redeem it. All that means she can be trusted to deal with broader responsibilities. And thank god at least SOMEONE understands that Joan’s someone to look up to. Also, handing over the keys was an obvious symbolic act of shedding the office manager mindset–seriously, a PARTNER was running around worrying about the timecards?! Ridiculous.

      Harry is absolutely right about his value and did a good job of throwing down the gauntlet in the second confrontation. In the first, he derailed himself by making it a tantrum about it being unfair that that slut Joan (in his mind) got to be a partner when he didn’t, and by bringing up the secretary issue at all. You think the partners will be better able to envision you sitting at their table when you interrupt a meeting to discuss your secretary? When it’s already been resolved? Please.

      As for Megan, I really liked her in this episode. I’ve never been part of the Megan-hating crowd, but I really can’t understand how someone could come away from this episode without at least a little sympathy for her.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        I think handing off the keys to Dawn was also a way to ensure that Joan never has to worry about being undermined by a secretary again. It’s as much a way for her to save face as anything else.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          It may also be a way to test Dawn’s mettle since she said as much about Dawn not knowing that a seemingly trusting and generous gesture was really a punishment. Remembering how Joan treated Sheila, Paul Kinsey’s black girlfriend, I don’t think Joan will be applying for an NAACP card anytime soon.

    • Pants_are_a_must

      I must say, wow. In a show full of assholes, abusers and rapists, Harry just outshone them all. Ironic applause.

      • awesomesabrina

        what? what Harry did was nothing like rape.

        • Pants_are_a_must

          No, but he still managed to make himself look like the biggest ass on that show.

      • AnotherJulie

        Harry has been consistent. He has no problem asking for $$/ better office/ better title/ partnership etc. He has no problem embarrassing himself in the process……. but nobody can outshine Don!

        • Pants_are_a_must

          Oh, I do not doubt that Don has the ability to be a giant hypocritical ass. However, that was the first we heard from Harry this season, in my recollection, and he managed to outass even Don. I honestly wanted to see Joan drop a TV on his head.

          • jeeplibby02

            Why? For telling the truth? Joan prostituted herself, and is delusional if she thinks people are going to respect her for it. As Loretta Devine’s character said in that “Client List” promo that aired 10,000 times last weekend, “Once you cross that line, there’s no going back.”

            • formerlyAnon

              Respect her for it? No. But considering she probably saved the firm, or at least a lot of jobs, she’s well within the bounds of how people deal with their own hard choices to expect that she be spared a public emotional temper tantrum from a colleague. One that technically she out ranks.

            • Pants_are_a_must

              …..I actually have no words. You can think whatever you want, but I am bowing the hell out of this discussion, since it seems to lead into attitudes that don’t have a lot to do with Mad Men.

            • AnotherJulie

              Many people are defending Joan’s choice to be a prostitute as her best or only option.

              Joan crossed that line and now she is paying for it. Surely she knew this was coming.

    • Topaz

      My concern with Megan is that she started in the relationship with Don with so much apparent power and confidence, which is slowly being sapped away by him now that she’s not in the place he wants her – at his work, to fulfil his fantasies of having everything at once. At one point I felt that if she walked out on him she’d rain down devastation on him that wouldn’t necessarily make him grow as a person, but would force some kind of caution onto him in his future dealings with women. She seems so sad and demoralised now that I suspect when it does end the whole thing will just stink of exhaustion. Which I’m sure is exactly what he’s setting out to do. He’s sabotaging this relationship purely so he can maintain some sense of being the powerful one rather than the weak, cowardly asshole he is, ruining any opportunity for her to teach him something about himself in the process. It’s exactly the same thing that happened with the woman he left to marry Megan. It’s all so very depressing.

      • AnotherJulie

        I agree… I was hoping she would leave Don back when it would been a wake-up call for him… sadly it is now too late for that.

        I felt truly bad for Megan at the end… her tears of frustration and “How could I be married to this guy?” broke my heart.

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        They’ve been showing her as powerless against Don for a while now, with her girly little outfits, barefoot in the kitchen, cooking for him and asking his permission to do things. It was painful in this episode, watching her crouch beside him on the sofa, literally trembling, thanking him for his largesse in letting her advance in her career, as he sits there stony-faced in his suit like a symbol of patriarchy. He has turned her into Betty.

        • Topaz

          You’re right, they have. I don’t know if she’s an exact replica of Betty though. I feel like she has the power to walk away and be single and carry on with her life, and get back the independence she had. But maybe I’m kidding myself.

        • Lisa_Co

          Megan should never have told Don. She had already decided to do the scene and he never watches the show. Big mistake.

          • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

            She’s not deceitful like he is, I think that’s the point.

    • fitzg

      One of the themes that I took out of this episode is “be careful what you wish for.” Joan wished for the partnership, but the consequences of what she did in order to get it are not what one would want in an ideal world. Don/Pete wished for ketchup, and wound up not only failing to get it, but losing beans (at least for the moment). Peggy wished for ketchup (and the corresponding validation of her abilities vis-a-vis Ted) that would come along with it, but wound up risking her friendship with Stan. Megan wished for a career as an actress, and she has started along that path, but at the risk of her marriage (which she ostensibly cared about when she set out). Harry wishes for a partnership — and to give the partners a piece of his mind for not adequately recognizing his work (at least per Harry) — and he has now done the latter, with consequences remaining to be seen. And the subplot about Joan’s friend emphasizes this theme on two levels — Kate wishes to be young and single in NY for a night, and after she gets her wish, she regrets it. Also, when she expresses her admiration to Joan about Joan’s accomplishments, Joan essentially says in so many words “be careful what you wish for, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.” But I think it will be interesting to see if MW spends the rest of the season exploring how his characters grapple with achieving what they think they want.

      • beejeez

        Good stuff, fitzg. I’d add that Dawn managed to get herself a good Mad Ave job, and now is wondering what she’s gotten into.

    • H2olovngrl

      Don and Peggy’s pitches were like two halves of the same ad campaign.

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        It would be interesting, but they said in the episode that Peggy landed the job and Don didn’t.

        • 3hares

          No, neither of them got the job. It went to JWT.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            Oh, I misunderstood that.

          • CarolinLA

            SO MANY people missed that bit of dialogue last night. Maybe the actors should take note.

            • Laylalola

              It’s the writers who need to take note. They dropped the name of a third, unseen ad agency into the mix — J. Walter Thompson — and even though JWT had never been mentioned (this season, at least) just assumed viewers would (1) recognize it was a third agency thrown into the mix and not the name of Peggy’s new one because (2) the writers assumed viewers would recognize a huge real-world ad agency, when probably only those in the business did.

            • beejeez

              I’m sympathetic, L — I hate misunderstanding a reference I’m assumed to get myself. But I think it’s reasonable for the writers to expect regular “Mad Men” viewers to be familiar with J. Walter Thompson.

        • H2olovngrl

          I think another agency landed it. I missed it, but another commenter said a larger agency than both Peggy’s and Don’s won.

    • reebism

      I disagree, respectfully, with T.Lo’s take on Joan: in the first season, when Joan was taking breaks and running out of the office for her affair with Roger, she never asked anyone to cover for her, and in fact dropped copious hints to the other girls that she was off and “not to look for her” (which led her to be disappointed when the other secretaries were more interested in talking about Peggy’s success instead). Once we see her as head office secretary in season 2, when she has power enough to enforce no crying in the break room, we never see her slip away from the office for a tryst. Also, as she fired Jane and Lane’s secretary before, she has no problem with firing in public. (Though, amazingly enough, Meredith is still around.)

      The issue with Scarlet isn’t that she slipped out, it’s that she had another girl cover for her and then lied to Joan’s face about the cover-up, making Dawn complicit. Joan likely would have left Scarlet off with a warning if not for her weak justifications and dragging Dawn into it.

      Also, at the time of season 1, Joan wasn’t actually covering anyone’s desk: you get the feeling, compared with her increased duties in the later seasons, that she was underused and a little bored at the office. Right now in SCDP, Scarlet was responsible for Harry’s desk and keeping track of his movements: if she was going to slip out, she should have had someone else cover Harry’s desk while she was out. No one knew where Harry was. The lapse there was much bigger than slipping out for an afternoon of shopping on company time.

      • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

        Good points.

      • http://howtofaint.tumblr.com/ How to Faint

        I seriously don’t understand why Joan is still putting up with Meredith, much less allowing her to take the minutes at the partner meeting. Her ass would’ve been fired long ago if it had been up to me.

        • reebism

          It’s one of those awkward things, because the actress is really good and has great comedic timing, but the character has no business remaining there, especially after the huge hiring boom between seasons 5 and 6. I’d say it’s because Meredith has blackmail, because she knows the full story of how awkward it was when SCDP had to hire a black employee, but if Meredith were able to be that calculating, she wouldn’t be Meredith.

          • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

            Lois (I think that was her name) remained in the company after cutting off someone’s foot in the office with a lawn mower.

            • reebism

              And that makes NO SENSE. But the actress is very good, so you can see why they forgave it.

            • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

              I think they just didn’t give too much thought to the realism of Lois’s and Meredith’s careers. :)

        • Laylalola

          Am I imagining things — I thought Scarlet was the secretary who had been groomed to take the minutes at the partner meetings after Joan became a partner.

          • http://howtofaint.tumblr.com/ How to Faint

            I thought so too! She was the one taking the minutes last season, so how did Meredith end up doing it? I wonder if it was a last-minute change to spite Scarlett.

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        I think Joan was already office manager in season 1, no?

        • reebism

          I don’t think so — she seemed to have much more authority from season 2-on (banning crying in the break room, etc) than she did in the first season.

    • Melanie

      I need someone to tell me where Joan and Kate went after work – the soda shop with the phones at the table? What kind of place is that? I’ve never heard of or seen anything like it. You just go there? And wait for . . . a guy . . . to call the phone at your table? I don’t even know how to Google it to find out more, but I’m fascinated.

      • Inspector_Gidget

        I don’t think the phones were *supposed* to used for pickups. I think that’s just one of those restaurants where they use phones to place menu orders as kind of schtick. For me that was all about showing that Joan still knew how to work the singles scene, i.e., asking the waiter to “check their phone” so that he and her friend could flirt in private.

        • Melanie

          Hmm. Because in the background, the phone rang at a neighboring table and a giggling girl picked it up as her friends all looked on excitedly. That’s why I wondered.

          • trixietru

            Telephone bars were a novelty for flirting connected to a landline so shy parties could chat and then play at revealing who was watching/calling them in the room. *of course I’m not old enough to remember the originals (wink) only the retro revivals that spring up once in a while. That’s why Joan mocks her friend for finding the place in a guidebook because it was such a teen/tourist thing to do.

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        That was awesome. The group of kids giggling in the background with the phone reminded me of The Telephone Song in Bye Bye Birdie (a musical I only know of because it starred in a memorable Mad Men scene :) ).

    • Paula Pertile

      Just remembered something else – regarding the maid’s room.
      When Don checks for the penny under the mat – that was a sort of creepy little hallway, with other, I’m guessing, doors to other maids’ rooms for other apartments. They all had the same lock. So, is this a ‘live-in’ maid, who has her own entrance? I’m familiar with live-in quarters in homes, but not apartments, so I’m just curious. And how convenient that she’s gone so much! And also, Sylvia greeted Don with something like “I’ve been waiting here all day.” Which means she’s been hanging out in the maid’s room all day? Or what? Can she hear him knock on the maid’s door from somewhere else in the apartment?
      I dunno – small point, but that whole arrangement just left me wondering a bit.

      • trixietru

        Don and Sylvia’s apartments are stacked one floor apart. Each has three bedrooms and a ‘service’ door in the kitchen. A typical kitchen exit leads to a service hallway and freight elevator usually used for moving furniture in and out. Manhattan high rises generally prohibit furniture, repair-people and large deliveries from the tenant elevators. Some tenants might prefer their maids or housekeepers to use the back entrance. *i don’t get the impression Sylvia has live in help.

        • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

          Some people here have been calling Don and Sylvia’s trysting place “the maid’s room”, including moi but on second thought, maybe it’s just a spare bedroom. But before I came to that conclusion, I was sooo hoping that the maid would pop in and catch them.

          • Melissa Brogan

            I’m fairly certain Don and/or Sylvia referred to it as the maid’s room.

      • VictoriaDiNardo

        What trixie said, plus I would add that some apartments have a “maid’s room” off the kitchen and near the service entrance, separated from the other bedrooms, for live-in help. You would be able to hear someone at the rear door from the kitchen or living room, depending on how large the apartment is.

    • purkoy28

      remember harry from the early seasons, l.a. has really douched him up.

    • purkoy28

      sally is still wearing her necklace that don gave her for xmas on season 4.

    • theotherTLO

      Am I the only one who laughed when Joan said to Scarlett, “leave now before you embarrass yourself,” and then Scarlett stomped up the stairs in those white patent leather boots? Scarlett had already embarrassed herself with that go-go ensemble :).

      Thanks TLo, for capturing that poignant line from Joan’s friend Kate about it not mattering how they treat you. Seems to me like it applied to Dawn in this episode too. Applies to me in my workplace in 2013. I still have to deal with older men putting me down to make themselves feel better about their own crap (not that I slept with a jaguar dealer to get where I am…)

    • Stargazer

      Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but is there a correlation between the keys Scarlet had when she brought in Harry’s danish and the keys Joan handed to Dawn?

    • breathlss79

      Ironically, even though “acting” is lying, Megan is trying to communicate and be honest about her career. She is as “open-minded” as the swingers (whose marriage will certainly outlast the Drapers). Don has no idea how to live honestly, and Megan is going to go the road of Dr. Faye.

    • purkoy28

      i was watching season 4 this weekend and realized that megan was almost always between don and faye, if even from a distance. or she is standing beside him when there are a group of secretaries around him and always in a solid bright color surronded by others in prints… like a solid pillar for don to lean on. I thought its funny how they tell us whats going to happen by staging but its almost unnoticable until u watch a full other season then look back.

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        TLo did notice it :) They pointed out she was being dressed for us to notice her, and they pointed out that shot when she was framed right in the middle between Don and Faye.

    • LuluinLaLa

      I watched the episode a bit tipsy last night, so bear with me, but I thought that Joan’s friend was actually her sister. They looked and sounded so much alike, and I guess with Joan’s mother there, I must have connected some imaginary dots. Also, I jumped out of my seat when I realized that the swinging TV writer was Ted McGuinley. Love him.

    • http://www.secretgirlyside.blogspot.com/ Caroline

      I haven’t read all the comments yet, but did nobody else think that the reason Joan came down so hard on Scarlett was that she figured out she was sleeping with Harry? All signs seemed to point to that – Scarlett’s “Harry has the best ideas” comment, all their touching and his angry defense of her, and the fact that they left early together (Dawn mentions explicitly that neither of them were there). I doubt the writers would have gone to the trouble to make it seem like an affair unless it was strongly meant to imply something.

      Joan’s a hypocrite, yes, because she did the same thing, but now she won’t tolerate it. I thought that was another reason why Joan was so much harder on Scarlett than Dawn, even though they both lied, and even before Dawn came to her and apologized.

      • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

        I got a whiff of that too…why wouldn’t he sleep around since everybody else does.

      • trixietru

        I think Joan’s swift attack towards Scarlett was used to show how her zero tolerance towards female subordinates is the polar opposite of her ingrained subservience towards men at any level.

        • AnotherJulie

          Agree. My 83-year old grandmother, whose age Joan would be, has this same attitude. She will rip any woman a new one for the slightest offense while jumping up to wait on any man who crosses her path.

          • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

            My grandma is a bit like that. Makes you sad to think how they were treated both as kids and as adults to make them bitter toward any woman who isn’t as terrified or as perfect as they had to be.

            • AnotherJulie

              Excellent point! I guess Joan’s mother really did a number on her, and apparently there no dad in her life… At least Joan got a few compliments out of her Mom in this episode.

              I feel bad now for being so hard on Joan….

        • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

          That’s a great point. I wouldn’t say ingrained subservience, exactly, because she was quick to put down that asshole Joey for making noise in the office (though she didn’t know how to handle his backtalk). But she does normally forgive the higher-ups (including herself) a huge variety of offenses while she expects the “girls” to be absolutely perfect. It makes sense if you think when she began to work as a secretary and how she was trained — men are masters and can drink and take naps on the job; their power and naughtiness is “why we love them.” Women, on the other hand, are servants and need to be inhumanly perfect and always on their toes. Joan prided herself on being such a perfect, brilliant Jeeves that she got the job of being the boss of all the other servants — and then for keeping such a super-tight ship that any misbehaving secretary gets their head cut off. Of course she turns back to that old role when she’s humiliated and threatened.

          • AnotherJulie

            Well said!

          • trixietru

            She is Jeeves! Your post reminds me of when Joan threw the desk object at the receptionist for not screening the server of her divorce papers. Humiliated and threatened for sure.

      • snarkykitten

        I got that feeling too. Perhaps Joan’s angry with the idea because she’s angry with the situation that she’s in now, sleeping to the top. So she takes it out on another woman who she believes to be sleeping with the boss.

    • decormaven

      Had to chuckle when I spotted a bottle of Lancer’s wine on the table during the dinnertime at Joan’s. Many the 1960’s tables that were graced with that bottle!

      • AZU403

        With a candle burning in it!

      • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

        Thanks for that! As soon as I saw the bottle I had flashbacks since we drank that a lot in the eighties too. Was wracking my brain for the name!

    • CarolinLA

      Maybe SCDP would’ve won Heinz had they used Ginsberg instead of Stan.

      • 3hares

        Ginsberg doesn’t do art. He would have replaced Don.

        • AnotherJulie

          I think she meant we didn’t get enough Ginsburg last night!

    • CarolinLA

      Another Harry vs Joan comparison: he thinks big and she thinks small. He’s making dollars at Dow while she’s counting pennies at the time clock. Even in the partner’s meeting, she was talking about a small bookkeeping thing while Harry’s demanding a seat at the table. When she told Katie that they still think of her as a secretary, she realized then that she had a hand in that and boom, changed her wardrobe. OMG!!! As I type this, I realized “SHE CHANGED THE CONVERSATION ABOUT HERSELF!!!!”

      • trixietru

        Excellent point re Joan’s vision. Reflecting back on TLo call out to Joan’s queen-bee complex I’m pretty sure her vengeance towards Harry will be public and scathing. It may take awhile but it will happen.

      • filmcricket

        In the meeting she’s asking how to account for Project K. It seems like a small thing, but keeping budgets and accounts straight is actually vital to the health of any firm. It’s not until Harry bursts in that she tells the partners about the time clock issue.

        And again, I think her telling the partners that is because she doesn’t want to tell them Scarlett disrespected her to her face. It certainly made her look small to be so focused on that – and Don kind of undermines her by saying “Dawn’s a good secretary” – but even being seen as overly fussy would be better to Joan than being seen as someone who couldn’t command respect.

    • UsedtobeEP

      Mad Style got a shout out in the Huffington Post’s Mad Men review today, BTW

    • librarygrrl64

      “We have a feeling that, like everything Mad Men-related (right down to buttons and ashtrays), this will be highly debated, but we didn’t think Joan really acted properly toward either of the secretaries.” No debate here. I thought she completely over-reacted, even though it was in character for the episode and for Joan overall.

      “Again, this will be debated wildly, but we think Harry had a point about everything except how Joan got her partnership. He really is terribly undervalued and he really should have a partnership by now; especially with Lane out of the picture. But because he’s an asshole, he essentially had to go and call Joan a whore in front of everyone.” Also agreed. He HAS been undervalued, and he DID go about it like a raging asshole.

    • Adelaidey

      People are fuming because Joan can’t fire somebody and make it stick, but remember- nobody listened when Bert Cooper fired the gum chewer.

    • AnotherJulie

      On the subj of combining/merging agencies: Maybe somebody somewhere will re-hire Sal!

      Every thought of Sal gets me angry all over again: Don fires Sal for not sleeping with a client.

      Meanwhile, Don can’t bear the thought of Joan sleeping with a (future) client. He tries really hard to stop her, but it’s too late, and Joan gets promoted to partner. Sal remains fired.

      • formerlyAnon

        Yup. Don is just an amoral user with a few, very limited exceptions to the emotional distance he keeps from everyone. Nonetheless, all the anti-discrimination stuff that’s just a few years down the road completely ignores sexual orientation. It’s not even enough on the radar to cause controversy. From today’s standpoint, it’s pure cognitive dissonance.

        • AnotherJulie

          I know. It broke my heart watching Sal’s scenes in Season 1…. all those lame macho comments he was forced to make in an attempt to cover up his homosexuality…..

    • http://twitter.com/DallasDiner Infinine®™

      Well, well. The gang was full of hi jinks last night. They should have played the old Z.Z. Hill song, “Cheatin’ In The Next Room”, for the ending, except that it didn’t come out until ’82. Would have been a perfect tongue in cheek moment. I always accompany my viewing of MM with a little nostalgic sensory stimulation, ie; a drink of the time period, a food dish, etc.

      Last night I sprayed a touch of Norell perfume on and inhaled the woodsy, musky scent with moss, myrhh and floral top notes and a nice dry down. It came out in 1968 and they still sell a cologne version of it at Target. I bought the parfume some years ago and keep it in the fridge where it smells as fresh as the day I got it. Nice blast from the past. I always wonder what the ladies of MM would wear. I see Megan in Norell or Courreges which launched in ’66.

      Anyhoo, TLo is on the money about poor Joanie having to resort to her Queen Bitch/Bee tactics in being way too harsh on the secretaries. Yayyy for Harry standing up for himself but boooo but fronting off Joan with the partners present. I was holding my breath when he was called into Bert Cooper’s office, thought they were handing him a severance check for sure. I don’t think he’s that much of an asshole, just under appreciated and frustrated.

      I couldn’t stand to see Megan grovel to Don about her kissing scene but it brought the point home very clearly that women still catered to and sought their husband’s approval on just about everything. Hurry up, women’s movement! I also knew it wouldn’t be long into the series before Don showed his natural colors (or his ass, if you will). The writers are so dead on with how these types use emotional cruelty to keep the upper hand. My ex would pull shit just like that. He once introduced me to a cool consignment shop, which he knew I would love, then berated me afterwards, for “taking too long” in the store. Huh? We were there for an hour, but oops, I was having too much fun. He had to fix that.

      I’m really happy to see Dawn get some time but sadly realize it’s now at the expense of Betty and Sally time. I don’t know MW, Dawn is cute as a button, would it really be that hard for her to get a date in 1968? AA professional women and the perceived shortage of men didn’t come until much later, if at all unless one chooses to believe the propaganda. True, the numbers have thinned since then due to incarceration, war and a high death rate, but back then it wouldn’t have been as much of an issue, in my opinion.

    • SuzyQuzey

      I think Joan will soon completely redecorate Lane’s office and move into it. She will also groom someone (not Dawn) or hire someone to be office manager. That way, she can further distance herself from the secretarial underlings and their petty issues.

    • greenwich matron

      Scarlett’s actions don’t excuse Joan’s behavior. She stormed off to look for Dawn with the intention of making a scene. It was a power trip. This is not the first time Joan has tried to prop up her ego by publicly berating an underling. Aside from being unprofessional (outside of Charles Dicken’s novels) and mean-spirited, it’s going to undermine her deteriorating status in the office. There’s a reason why supervisors have offices.

      • AnotherJulie

        Agree! Joan knows she is a partner in title only. She is in a tough spot, albeit of her own doing.

      • lilyvonschtupp

        What about when she spazzed out on Meredith last season? That’s the reason Don dragged her to Jaguar and then they got ripped.

        • greenwich matron

          Exactly. It’s easy to imagine a scene where someone gets fired for exposing the good name of the company to her sordid legal proceedings.

      • AnotherJulie

        Agree with “deteriorating status”. Joan’s title (partner) is in name only. She is still viewed as a bitch by the women (except Dawn – interesting!! ) and a whore by the men. That was the 60s!

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        Yes, it was definitely a power trip, in response to Harry Crane calling her a whore (in so many words) in front of the partners. I kind of enjoyed seeing that. Hello, Early Seasons Joan! Missed your absolutely terrifying cold face.

    • sherrietee

      I thought Scarlett was fired, not for leaving early or having someone clock her out, but for the bald-faced lying about it.

      As an aside, I don’t know why I thought Joan’s visiting friend was actually Joan’s sister, based on the interaction with her mother.

      • AnotherJulie

        Maybe the sister/friend will be clarified. There has been no previous mention of a sister but I also thought the dynamic w/ all 3 seemed familial. Perhaps half-sister? Just guessing/ no info on Joan’s Dad.

        More interesting was the hint of Joan’s previous 6-month marriage….

      • sweetlilvoice

        I thought the friend was Joan’s old best friend from her childhood which is why Mom knew her so well! I loved Joan and friend waking up the next morning hung over and makeup smeared. Memories….

    • purkoy28

      im confused, i was reading another blog about mad men and they were saying inthis episode, it was revealed harry and scarlett are having an affair, i keep watching it over again….but i cant see when this was revealed. Did that happen or is that blogger wrong?

      • AnotherJulie

        I think it was insinuated, not revealed. After all, Harry sleeps with every woman who will have him

        • purkoy28

          when was it insuiated? im completely missing the hints.

          • MissMariRose

            The fact that she says he has the best ideas and asked him if he found his keys.

            • purkoy28

              i thought those were office keys, but i guess joan has those, so thats was all the hints. interesting.

          • Melissa Brogan

            In addition to what MissMariRose said, also the fact that she calls him Harry, that he went to such lengths to keep her there (“we ARE attached!”). A boss will stick up for a good secretary, but he was going pretty overboard. I think it was supposed to be a combination of him acting like a jackass in response to being undervalued and wanting to keep his office hook-up readily available.

            • purkoy28

              yes, when she called him harry i found that to be intimate too. but if they were having an affair would harry really bring attention to them by yelling we are attached? i know he meant as secretary and boss, but i think thats all he meant. if they were sleeping together then u would think harry wouldnt use those words quite like that. i cant wait to see if they are having an affair.

            • purkoy28

              paul used to introduce himslf as married to pretty secrataries, and now he is such a letch, l.a. really sleezed him up.

    • purkoy28

      funny how no one bats an eye that dons late the same morning joan is late, but people notice joans not there. she probably never took time off or came in past 8 am ever.

    • purkoy28

      i love the morning after, with joan and her friend waking up in the same bed with mascara smeared and the same dress on. it reminds me of when i was younger with my best friend.

    • Patsy Stone

      Is ANYONE going to mention the fact that Joan announced she’d been married back in Spokane???? “Worst 6 months of my life”.

      • purkoy28

        yes i forgot about that, thats crazy.

      • makeityourself

        I noticed that too. Lots of backstory crammed into that bedroom scene. What I didn’t learn, however, was whether they are sisters or best friends since childhood. I couldn’t tell.

      • Melissa Brogan

        I’m going to have to rewatch. My impression from that scene was her friend was married and drove Joan crazy for six months. I could well be wrong though.

    • editrixie

      I think I’m largely done with this show at this point — I mean, emotionally, and in the way I always told everyone it was the best show I was watching. I’ll still watch and read the recaps, but after these first few episodes, all I feel is this kind of residual sadness and soreness — like a blow on a bruise. I have a hard time leaving shows, and there’s still a lot to look at, what with my obsession lately with midcentury modern, not to mention that was my growing-up time.

      I’m tired of the fact that while attempting to illuminate the changes happening in the world around the Mad Men, we’re still subjected to this very male gaze/male privilege view of everything, like everything else we get from all of the entertainment industry. It just wears on me, and I think Weiner still thinks Don is this fascinating creature no one can resist, when all he is anymore is loathsome. Before I loved to hate what he did, now I just hate him without any interest in what he’s doing. He’s *tiresome*.

      I still love Peggy to death, but I’m not drawn into her stories anymore. I can always tell who she is. At this point it’s watching out of habit and because I suck at giving up shows. After the bludgeoning we Southland fans just took on that show, I’m kind of exhausted by having to keep standing up after getting these entertainment beatdowns from the showrunners. At this point, it seems as if every showrunner thinks we have to have operatic levels of misery heaped upon misery, despicable people doing despicable things to each other, and so on, for a show to be cool. And judging by the watercoolery success of Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, etc., they’re right.

      • ZnSD

        Thank you for such a concise description of my own emotional response to the current season (and last season of BB) of these shows. Misery upon misery indeed. Loathsome is exactly what came to mind when I watched Don Draper sink into a mire of self-pity and self-righteousness. I’m ready for the fast-forward to his unhappy spinsterhood of dirty boxer shorts and empty scotch bottles and the phone that never, ever, rings. I’m ready for Kahleesi to take her dragons and be Queen. And I’m ready for Jesse to tell Walter White to fuck off, forever. It’s most painful for me to even consider letting go of MM because I love the look; I too have fallen head over heels for the nostalgia of what it looked like before things became so obvious.And Southland: God I hope that show returns. I was so sad when I watched the season finale. Cheers-

    • NoGovernmentName

      I haven’t had a chance to read through all the comments, but does anyone know what the song was that was playing in the nightclub where Joan hooked up?

      • desertwind

        Bonnie and Clyde. Serge Gainsbourg with Brigitte Bardot. There’s a great YouTube video of it.

    • Sweetbetty

      I haven’t worked my way through all the comments yet but I’ve been waiting for someone to bring up Dawn and the other black girl’s conversation at the lunch counter. A few episodes back there was discussion here about Dawn’s reaction to seeing Don’s doctor friend in the office and speculation that they might know each other outside the office. When Dawn’s friend asked about the possibility of her meeting a guy (to hook up with) at the office I was waiting for Dawn to say something about the doctor, but that fell flat. Then there was the comment about Mrs. So-and-so mentioning that her son saw Dawn in the city and Dawn’s response that it was odd that he just looked down and didn’t even say hello. Any ideas about what Weiner’s getting at with those scenes?

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        I’m taking TLo’s advice not to look for soapish plots in Mad Men, so I think the bit with the doctor was just to show that Don didn’t have many friends visiting him at the office so Dawn was surprised — plus maybe to hint at how scared and eager to please Dawn is. Then the scene with her friend makes it clear that she IS scared and self-conscious and afraid of sticking out, plus it’s not just her, because that black acquaintance in the street was so afraid of sticking out as a black guy that he wouldn’t even acknowledge her..

    • lilyvonschtupp

      Quick question: What did Joan say to Paul Kinsey’s gf at his party?

      • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

        I don’t remember the specifics, but it was horrible and racist.

        • AnotherJulie

          I think Joan’s comment was meant to be an insult to Paul, rather than a racist comment against the gf. Just my opinion.

          • Eric Stott

            I got the feeling that the black GF was a trendy political accessory.

            • greenwich matron

              Both Paul and Joan treated her that way.

            • AnotherJulie

              Exactly. As one of his exes, Joan was calling him on it.

          • http://robot-heart.tumblr.com heartbot

            It was both.

            • AnotherJulie

              Agree.

          • 3hares

            She was taking a dig at Paul by pointedly commenting on Sheila’s race. Since Sheila was the black person there, she was on the receiving end of the racism.

            • AnotherJulie

              Very well put. Agree.

          • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

            Joan was making Sheila very self-conscious about her race (like she wouldn’t be already, in a mostly-white party with her white boyfriend in the 1960s) in order to hurt Paul. It doesn’t mean Joan was more racist than normal for her social circle — just very insensitive to racial issues, which makes sense because she was actively trying to be hurtful.

            She was the same with gender issues by the way. When Peggy was upset about the seriously awful sexual harassment she was experiencing as the new girl, Joan’s response was basically “You’re not that hot so enjoy it while it lasts”. Like TLo say, she was just a generally mean and bitchy person who wouldn’t let political correctness (or the 1960s equivalent) stand in the way of a good dig at someone.

            • AnotherJulie

              Agree, Joan was just mean. I still think her main intent was to insult Paul, but she sure didn’t care one whit that it insulted Sheila.

      • sarahjane1912

        Ah … more of a dig at Paul than his GF, to my mind, especially considering Joan and Paul had had a ‘thing’.

        “When Paul and I were together, the last thing I would have taken him for was open-minded.”

        • AnotherJulie

          Agree. Paul tries so hard to be cool and progressive. Joan’s comment wasn’t racist in that context.

        • purkoy28

          and also the crack about her being a customer one day at the grocery store instead of working there, then kinseys gf said ” i live in the area, i have been a customer since i was a kid” or something liek that.

    • CarolinLA

      I was surprised when Don said he was against the war during the Mel/Arlene dinner. Given how he and Roger talk about their war years, I thought he would back the establishment.

      • Logo Girl

        He was pretty traumatized by Korea, and he fled the aerospace conference when they started talking about “strategies”. But that did seem out of left field.

      • greenwich matron

        I think it was the writer’s way of letting us know that we shouldn’t expect a “Vietnam consciousness turning point” episode, which would be pretty pedestrian (unless they had someone start off antiwar and wind up pro war). Also, a lot of the establishment types were pretty sick of paying for it.

        I thought the emphasis on the Tet offensive was a little weird. The only reason I know about it was because I took a course on the Vietnam war in college (in the eighties), it seems a little obscure to use as an allegory. Does it resonate at all today?

        • reebism

          It’s not an allegory, it was the major turning point, both in the actual battles and in the American perspective on the Vietnam War — this was what led Cronkite to criticize the war during his on-air report. It’s a really big deal.

          I agree with purkoy that Don has always been portrayed as someone who thinks war is pointless and sees no glory in it, unlike Roger.

          • greenwich matron

            I meant in the context of the show…

            I am wondering how many Mad Men fans knew anything about it before Sunday night.

            • reebism

              Of course it’s an important event in the context of the show. I don’t understand why you’re thinking the writers would have included it as an allegory (literary device) as opposed to a real historical event that was resonating with the characters at the time and informing their worldview (historical grounding).

              To answer your question, yes, the Tet offensive resonates today, and I’m sure the writers of the show felt that any reasonably-informed viewer of the show would recognize its significance.

            • greenwich matron

              Well, since you asked, I assume that the writers have included it as a literary device because they cannot recite every historical event that happened during the 60’s and they chose events that either advance the plot or reveal something about the characters and their situations.

              I don’t understand the reason for your tone. There are several anti-war events that the writers could have used, and I don’t think this was an obvious one. I have spoken to some friends who are in their 40’s, (perhaps they are not as educated about it as you, but they are intelligent, informed people), and they didn’t really know the significance of it. I was wondering if it resonated with others, and you informed me that it resonated with you and proclaimed that you were speaking for all reasonably informed people.

            • reebism

              You actually answered your question right there: this wasn’t an anti-war movement, this was *the* pivotal moment where the balance between pro-war and anti-war sentiment shifted toward the latter. If they’re not going to focus on the anti-war movement, but rather show the balance of sentiments, this is the moment that they’re going to focus on.

              It’s not obscure to the people who were paying attention at the time, as Don and people in Dow chemical would have been: it may have seemed that way to you, because you were a child at the time, but your perception is not reality on this. I was surprised because it seemed so hubristic to say.

            • greenwich matron

              I think we may be talking about different things. I understand your point about it being significant at the time, and I am not arguing whether it was significant. I am wondering if it resonates with people who were not able to pay attention at the time because they were too young or not born yet. Things like the Cuban missile crisis, the Beatles, the Kennedy assassination, pot, and the anti-war movement pervade popular culture, and I think that the Tet offensive is relatively obscure, and I was wondering if it resonates today.

              By the way, I edited my comment. I am really trying to be polite and I would appreciate the same.

            • reebism

              I’m sorry, I know I’m coming across as pedantically overintellectual and very snobbish– to me, the Tet Offensive is something we learned about in school, and is not obscure at all. Honestly, a lot of the countercultural references going on go way over my head and seem super-obscure, because my family did not indulge in pop culture of any kind growing up. And it would make sense for you not to know very much about the Tet Offensive if it happened when you were a child: I know very little about the context around the Berlin Wall.

              To me, the important thing isn’t “does this make sense to me, the viewer” but “would this make sense for the people on Mad Men if they had been real,” and in that regard, both pot and the Tet Offensive make sense, even if I myself am way more familiar with the latter than the former. :)

      • purkoy28

        i think don has always been anti war, he was traumatized by what he saw in korea, and knows that war is a long pointless killing spree, that doesnt solve problems, but causes them. Also, i might be wrong here but wasnt the vietnam war pointless and the only war america lost? That is what we are taught in Canada.

      • purkoy28

        but saying that, now that they represent dow chemical, the war would be a great investment for his client.

    • Fondli

      Love this, as always, but just a small comment on the line “Eerily, and creepily, it also mimics the way he saw his Uncle Max bed his mother.” … wasn’t she his step-mother? Following in the footsteps of his actual mother, the prostitute his father slept with who died in childbirth?

    • http://twitter.com/DarrenNesbitt Darren Nesbitt

      Oh meek Dawn, I’m almost certain she will be a trailblazer as someone commented before. I say this because of the connection just established with Joan.
      – Joan is sitting in her dark office contemplating taking over the world after she has had her last straw of disrespect. Then she figuratively passes her mojo over to Dawn with those keys (and new responsibility/authority).
      – Dawns response is I don’t care what these other bitches do, but I’m going to follow your path.
      After what happened with Scarlet I’m sure the rumor is that Dawn is not a team player and told. So the other secretaries probably like her even less and she won’t have many friends moving forward, It’s just her and Joan. Hopefully we get to see her as “Young Black Joan” as the season unfolds.
      – Also with all the wedding and “I can’t find a man in this sea of white people” talk I’m pretty sure some interracial office lovin’ may be coming her way. You agree?

      • AnotherJulie

        We desperately hope good things come to Dawn!

        Better yet would be SCDP hiring an superstar black male trailblazer.

        But it’s too soon, given how they treated the hiring process of their “token” Jew, Ginsburg……

    • Jennifer Coleman

      Oh, I remember reading about Olden. Talk about a trailblazer! That man had to be one mack-truck-strengthed genius to flourish in the1960s advertising world!

    • purkoy28

      ?I love that song at the electric circus, its hypnotic. who is the singers of that song?

      • MyrtleUrkel

        Serge Gainsberg & Brigitte Bardot’s “Bonny and Clyde”

        • purkoy28

          thanks, i love bridgettte bardot, i didnt know she sang too, its a great song and has been stuck in my head since sunday : )

    • purkoy28

      Scarletts boots and mini skirt were very fashionable and riskay for the 60s office, even for todays standard it is pretty riskay for the office. she looked great, alot better then meredith, lol. she reminds me of a little chipmunk, or bernadette from big bang theory (meredith, not scarlett) i was surprised meredith wanted to stick around to ask how joan was, considering she must be terrified of her after the “surprise, its an airplane”

    • Observer

      What is Joan’s job exactly? Partners in firms are revenue producers. She appeared to be in charge of the office staff prior to becoming a partner— a precursor to the modern day HR manager. If she moves away from managing the office staff, what is her function? Is she the COO? And who fires someone’s secretary without consulting with them first? That would be very unprofessional.

      • 3hares

        I think her official title is something like Director of Traffic? So she handles trafficking.

      • formerlyAnon

        Plus she seems to have taken over Lane’s accounting duties.

    • purkoy28

      joan gives her friend the same advise don gave to someone, i forget who……she said u will go home and find everything right where u left it” (in regard to her friend feeling bad about cheating)

      • http://twitter.com/omg_dora Dora K.

        You mean Don to Peggy when she was in the hospital after giving birth? “This never happened. You’ll be surprised how it never happened.” Classic Don.

    • purkoy28

      i cant believe joan doesnt have a secretary, or a new office. maybe now that she is pushing away from her role as head secretary that she was boxed in to, she will get her own secretary and an office with a window.

      • formerlyAnon

        Now that you point out Joan’s lack of a secretary, I think it’s bizarre I never noticed that before.

        • beejeez

          I think it’s very clear why Joan has no secretary and a crappy office. Her partnership is the result of a one-time deal. She has no new responsibilities. She has no clients to meet or staff to supervise. She’ll have to earn her way to additional perks.

    • purkoy28

      lots of people are saying how bland the convo between don and her friend was, how it didnt have any pop to it, i think it seemed like a normal conversation between friends having food after a tired long day. its not like they are at a party or scmoozing a guy, i think people were expecting finger snapping and “dont go there girl” sterotyped lingo. after reading the ccomments i think that is what people thought to see when two black women are talking together.

      • MyrtleUrkel

        Agreed and that’s ridiculous because black women in the 60s definitely did not talk that way.

        • AViewer44

          I agree. Also, I think the conversation throughout the series is often quite stylized, even stilted–take just about every scene involving January Jones, for instance. It isn’t real life, it’s a simulacrum, and that’s one of the things that’s so pleasing about it.

          • Zaftiguana

            Well, I don’t think J Jo’s scenes seeming stilted is all in the dialog, if you know what I mean. She’s had her moments, but all in all she’s not lighting the world on fire with her acting dynamism.

      • Zaftiguana

        You’re probably right that that’s what’s motivating some people, but I think it had a lot more to do with a lack of ease and connection between the characters and Nikki being kind of a non-entity. I mean, she sat there and listened to her friend (sister?) say that her job was more important than her wedding and she kind of didn’t bat an eyelash. It all just seemed like an excuse for some exposition from Dawn that didn’t get successfully fleshed out into a viable scene.

    • Elizabeth Moore

      ["A Joan/Dawn relationship seems so unlikely (especially since the old, bitchy Joan wasn’t exactly enlightened when talking to black girls; just ask Paul Kinsey’s old girlfriend), but this has real possibilities."]

      Don’t you mean “black women”?

    • purkoy28

      in season 1 or 2, Pete was forward thinking withhis idea of gearing a tv brand towards black consumers, don gave him props for his forward thinking in reconizing the trend before anyone else (also he saw the teen market first aswell)

      • purkoy28

        pete is also the one who brought up the reason why dawn should not be fired. The only color pete sees is green ( for money) everyone is either a client or a product to him.

    • Cuddlebunny

      (takes victory lap for calling the Heinz pitch)

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1017585103 Kanani Fong

      I’ve worked with and observed many Queen Bee Joans in my lifetime. They’re somewhat removed, never really part of the “group” they oversee, and always have the upper hand. Yes, you’re right. She hasn’t been a very nice person to the secretaries, but the main part of her job is to act as the frontline so the men are never disturbed by the small details of the business. I just wonder if she was mentored at one part by Shirley Blankenship –and what she was like when Joan was younger. (Boy, wouldn’t those be great prequels!).

      Peggy also had to find her inner bitch, but as it turns out, it was not far underneath her “nice girl” surface. The two may not be nice, but they were competent and excelled at their jobs. Back then, when the glass ceiling had yet to be even recognized, doing well at one’s job was the thing that helped them stay with the game, when the attitudes toward women could be pretty brutal. “Nice” could really (and still can) hold someone back. My two cents: I can’t stand Joan’s clothing. She’s looking dowdy.

    • lilyvonschtupp

      Great info!

    • Mrigaa Sethi

      Dawn also seems to share man-less-ness with Joan. She was very pre-occupied with her singleness this episode, and though her chances aren’t as slim as Joan’s, it probably pushes her to take Joan as her muse.

      • AnotherJulie

        What a shame that in 1968, Joan’s chances as a 37 year old were slim….

    • sylvdoanx

      I’m wondering if anyone can tell me more details about the restaurant that Joan and Kate went to? The one with phone on the table, with girls giggling when they got a call, and Kate getting a call from the waiter? Just wondering if it’s something popular during the era depicted in Mad Men..

    • unforgiven

      Be aware that even respectful constructive criticism is subject to being removed by these crybabies. They deleted my posts and blocked me from posting because I dared to criticize their pronouncements from on high.

      • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

        Actually, you skipped the discussion of the show and called us “catty” “touchy” and “superior” and told us that we are supposed to sit quietly while others talk about us. That you – HILARIOUSLY – think this was “respectful constructive criticism” tells us we did exactly the right thing in banning and deleting you.

        Bye now.

    • http://www.facebook.com/julia.sayre.9 Julia Sayre

      Joan’s failed attempt to fire Scarlet was EXTREMELY similar to her failed attempt to fire Jane, many seasons earlier. It was practically the exact same story: The secretary (Scarlet or Jane) does something that breaks the rules (stealing time or sneaking into Bert’s office). Joan confronts the secretary. The secretary lies at first, then does something to humiliate Joan (Jane insulted Joan to her face, Scarlet did that absurd hand-waving behind Joan’s back, in the middle of the office). Joan responds to this humiliation by firing the secretary on the spot. The secretary gathers her things and goes to a man (Roger for Jane, Harry for Scarlet), weeping and saying “Oh poor little damsel in distress me, I got fired!” The man in the situation chooses to play the part of the white knight, and rescues the secretary from her firing. Joan gets even more publicly humiliated when this man overrides her authority, and the secretary stays.
      This situation happened with Jane when Joan was just a head secretary. That the exact same thing happened when Joan became a partner–and that the man who rescued the secretary wasn’t even a partner–just goes to show that Joan gained absolutely NO power when she got her promotion.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kate-Thomas/1061191356 Kate Thomas

      Megan’s interactions with Don seemed very soap-opera-esque to me. Don reacted to her love scene in a very soapy way, almost like he thought that is what she wanted: a confrontation. She jumped at the chance to defend her choices with her playacted dialogue (e.g. “it’s my job–no! my career!). She’s such a fake.

      The other woman in his life waited around all day for him to come get the penny from under the mat. She also seems to be living out some kind of housewife soap opera fantasy.

      These scenes about Don’s teenage years in his uncle’s brothel make me wonder about his ideas of what men are. He is a drinker and he cheats on his wife, just like his bio dad. His second dad, “uncle Mac” was good to him, but he died. The third father figure, this uncle who runs the brothel, actually turns women, including the woman who raised Don, into prostitutes.

      I always think of Mad Men as illustrating the point that people are only able to choose their own destinies to a point–and then culture and upbringing takes over. To me, Don is a tragic character because he doesn’t know what to do in order to be a good man.

    • jinco

      CREDIT SQUEEZE IS AN ABOMINATION.

      It is especially egregious with this show. It cuts the carefully crafted tempo and atmosphere off at the knees every time. This episode’s abrupt cut off was really bad. The song, which was summing up so beautifully such intense emotion, a whole season’s worth really, was not even allowed to finish the sentence, ..”I really don’t know clouds…” SCREECH! and some stupid promo starts. REALLY? They couldn’t even let her sing the next 2 WORDS?

      It’s horrible and AMC remains in the bush leagues of broadcasting as long as they don’t understand why that is so wrong. It’s bad enough to have so many commercial breaks. But to just kick us in the teeth at the end of each show like that? Rude.