The Walking Dead: Welcome to the Tombs

Posted on April 01, 2013

Last night’s season 3 ender was a tension-filled hour with plot advancement, good character moments, and a death that was supposed to make us cry but didn’t. If we were the types to give letter grades to TV shows, we’d TWDS316+1probably settle on a strong “B” for this one. Good, but not great.  But several times in the middle of all the mayhem of this episode last night, we couldn’t stop from muttering, “This is so stupid.”

Why would any of the Prison group decide to follow the Governor back to Woodbury and continue the fight? How does THAT work? The prison defense worked because they had the higher ground, so to speak and knew the location well enough that they could effectively fight a larger, more organized army with more weaponry. But … what? Rick, Darryl and Michonne were going to take out a whole town by themselves?

Why would what looked to be the remainders of Woodbury go back to the prison with Rick at the end? Why wouldn’t they stay in their relatively secure town with running water and electricity?

Why doesn’t Rick slap Carl silly and take his gun away?

When did The Governor gain superpowers, by the way? Because suddenly, the man can do anything he wants and everyone around him becomes paralyzed to do anything about it. And don’t you try and pull a knife on Super-Gov, because he’s an unkillable machine now. Also, he’s completely erratic and murderous, which means all that stuff earlier in the season about how close he is to Rick is pretty much evaporated now. He spent all season being devious and then, for no real reason, turns into a raving psycho at just the point the story needs TWDS316+7that to happen. Also, the dramatic gun click, saving the one person who can attest to his deeds from execution. That could not have been more convenient or more groan-inducing.

And finally, why did Andrea, who is faced with an almost literal ticking bomb, decide to take several minutes out of her attempt to escape said bomb and instead have a nice heart-to-heart with it. “I’ll stop frantically trying to get those pliers for now. Let’s you and I talk about our feelings.” Ugh. She deserved to die for that alone.

But no, we come to find out, in an obvious bit of wallpapering over a character’s past inconsistencies, that Andrea just wanted to “save everyone.” Oh, please. Self-preservation ruled this character’s actions all season. It’s a shame that the writers screwed up yet another female character so badly that they were pretty much forced to kill her off, but don’t feed us this heroic bullshit after a season of watching her act like a total idiot.

TWDS316+3Tension is great in a story, and so are repercussions for the characters, but in the end, if the actions of the characters simply don’t make much sense, then our level of involvement with the story drops dramatically, especially if, after 3 seasons of the show, we’re barely any closer to knowing who these people are than we were on Day 1. In other words, last night’s episode was a pretty good one, but we’re almost completely disengaged from the characters and actions; it’s just consequence-less activities playing out on a screen in front of us, failing to suck us in (which is probably why this review is so disjointed). We mostly enjoyed the hour, but this show has structural problems to it that can’t be cured that easily. We need to see these characters act in ways that make some sort of human sense in order for us to remain engaged. Season four better be a lot different from what came before, or we may just wind up walking away from this show.

But hey, black people got to speak and not get killed, so there’s that.

 

 

[Photo Credit: Gene Page/AMC]

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  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=811053804 Stacy Parker Cole

    YEP. Totally agree. And for a season finale, I’m not feeling the “OMG I can’t WAIT to see what happens next season!!” That’s not so good! Carl shooting the other kid.. wow. He’s definitely not the same kid who would wander off in the forest and always get into trouble.

    • BigShamu

      Yeah the whole Carl plot line is not something I’d enjoy. Carl basically has abandoned the law as it was pre-zombie and has started to live his own law. A philosophy that no longer needs Dad’s badge, approval or control.

      • bella

        YES. its a bizarre little corner rick has painted himself into bc carls behavior is modeled off of watching his dad do some of the same things.

  • http://twitter.com/skitzfiggitous skitzfiggitous

    Not that we would have known this in advance, but “PICK UP THE F*#KING PLIERS, IDIOT!” could have been a liver-destroying drinking game cue in our living room last night.

  • VermillionSky

    At least Carl called his dad out on his stupidity in not killing the governor when he had the chance. Also, I don’t blame Carl for shooting that guy. He was told to drop his weapon and was not dropping and moving forward. I thought Herschel had learned his lesson from the farm, but I guess not.

    • jeeplibby02

      I also don’t see what’s so troubling about Carl’s actions under those circumstances. When a father tells an 11-year-old boy that he has to man-up (“No more kid stuff,” is how Rick phrased it), because the world they occupy is a dark and dangerous place, and his parents won’t always be there to protect him from it; and the boy recalls those words a year later while summoning the courage to put a bullet in his own mother’s head, this is the kind of kid you’re going get. I don’t have a problem with it.

    • BigShamu

      Then I guess in retrospect, Tyrese should have killed Rick when he popped out with the massacre survivor?

      • jeeplibby02

        Not the same thing. The survivor was there to vouch for the fact that Rick’s intentions were peaceful. Also, Rick wasn’t a stranger to Tyrese, and although their previous encounter didn’t end well, he saw that Rick’s people at the prison weren’t psychos, just cautious; and, Tyrese had deep misgivings about the Governor by that point. Those were sufficient reasons for Tyrese to give Rick a hearing, but absent those factors, he certainly would have been justified in perceiving Rick as a threat, and shooting him.

    • TropiCarla

      Exactly. “Drop” is not a synonym for “Move towards me and hand over” your weapon. Sure Carl could have shown a little mercy but why? He’s going through puberty smack dab in the middle of a freakin zombie apocalypse. Mercy is for punks. ;-)

  • http://twitter.com/SillyGrrlJen Silly Grrl

    Okay,
    here I go! First off, if they weren’t going to kill her off earlier in
    the season, it should NOT have been one of the final (LINGERING) moments
    of the season. I had NO FEELS except OH GOOD. FINALLY! and WHY ARE THEY
    TRYING TO MAKE ME CARE?

  • tereliz

    I, too, felt like I had to grade this episode on a curve since I was frustrated by a lot of the same things. Like, the Governor has a HUGE BLIND SPOT. Could no one have taken him down just by standing a little to his right? Come on. And if I had to look at Andrea’s perfectly manicured toes trying to get those pliers one more time, I would have thrown something through my TV. Rub some dirt on her feet, someone, please?

    I had the pleasure of watching this and the last episode back to back (family in town all week, finally left Sunday!) and was fairly pleased by how much the plot advanced, but now I’m wondering, to what end? I guess I understand why Rick and Co would bring people back to the prison instead of staying in a place the Governor knows better than any of them, and they have plenty of room, but what does that mesan for next season? Are we just filling the prison with red shirts, innocent, nameless, backstory-less walkerbait? Or is the storytelling in for a serious re-structure, in which characters actually interact with one another and make decisions as a group? Because while I’m not going to hold my breath, I think it’s something that would really help to make the storylines less erratic and more ultimately satisfying.

    • Angela_the_Librarian

      I also didn’t understand why that guy (from Tyreese’s group) did not just shoot the Governor when he had a chance. Why the hesitation to take down someone who just mowed down a whole group of people?!

      • BigShamu

        Because it’s bad tv writing. Why were Andrea’s boots untied? Bad tv writing. Why was Andrea such an idiot? Why was Lori? Why did Carl wander off so much? How did no one smell that many rotting zombies in the barn?

        I could go on?

        • CT14

          How about Michonne going on about how it was okay for Rick to think about turning her over to the Governor–heck, he HAD TO THINK ABOUT IT!no hard feelings, even though we knew the Gov was a rapist/murderer/keeper of heads in jars/torturer/ who wasn’t likely to keep his word.

          Bad writing to cover up bad writing.

          They really thought they’d done a good job setting up this “war” and that Andrea was just a failed hero, trying to save everyone. I think they were terribly surprised that the audience didn’t see it that way…that we saw her not as caught or divided, but as just plain stupid.

          And remember when Andrea’s sister, Amy, took all night to resurrect? I knew Milton was going to zombie up within minutes. Why? Because the plot called for it. Simply being trapped in a room with no sharp weapons wouldn’t be enough. Fighting ZombieMilton for hours wouldn’t be enough. Nope, got to have Milton wake up just as she’s getting the last handcuff off, which meant Andrea had to waste time “monologuing”.

          I really hope next season’s show runner has a better sense of plotting.

          • Angela_the_Librarian

            Hmm..I forgot that there used to be a time delay in the zombification process. Though now it seems to be a fairly quick process. Maybe the viral load is higher in each individual since it’s been in the environment longer (at the beginning of the outbreak a person had to be bitten in order to turn Zombie, which isn’t required anymore)

          • DeebaCee

            Amy and Milton had different deaths. Amy was bitten and had to take the time to get the fever and turn. Milton was killed and then turned. All of the “killed-then-turned” characters turned quickly (starting with Shane). Actually, I’m not sure we’ve seen a “bitten-then-turned” since the first season.

          • fogharty

            Beg to differ, Amy didn’t have time to catch the fever… her throat was savagely bitten. I remember thinking she wasn’t going to turn since she *hadn’t* gotten the fever. Of course, that was before we knew “everyone’s infected.”

            Dr. Jenner had said the resurrection time ranked from a few minutes to several hours, depending on the dramatic requirements.

            So… is Carl the new Shane?

          • Allyson Wells

            I think they’ve made it clear that some people take longer to turn than others. Remember that old guy Milton and Andrea watched turn? That happened almost immediately as well. The people from Woodbury were already feasting on each other when Rick, Darryl and Michonne pulled up and much time hadn’t passed there. The reanimation process varies in each person.

        • jeeplibby02

          Here’s another one: Why didn’t Rick hear walker-Shane shuffling and groaning two feet behind him when he mistook himself for Carl’s intended target? Yes, that has been bothering me for a whole year! LOL

    • MilaXX

      I thought the same thing. They can’t think to put some dirt under the toe nails? Bad enough she has perfect roots & lovely blonde curls even after being tortured. She gotta have a perfect pedicure too?

      • tereliz

        I hate to say that I was practically cheering when they opened that door and to show Andrea’s prone legs. (Was she still barefoot, I don’t remember?) Her character had so much potential, but once Amy died, it was like she left her old life, and everything she’d ever learned about people from a career that should have made her an excellent judge of character, far, far behind. What un-slimy lawyer would not see right away that there was obviously something wrong with the way the Gov was leading Woodbury? UGH, I better stop rewriting Andrea’s character in my head just like I rewrote the last episode of LOST or I just might explode…

        • BigShamu

          And she had NOTHING to say to Michonne? I’m so sorry I was wrong about everything and you were totally right? I’m sorry I threw you under the bus for a psychopath? I’m sorry you risked your life to save my sorry ass?

          Nothing.

          • MilaXX

            ugh don’t even remind of the sapphic undertones that went no where.

          • BigShamu

            Oh no, I will remind you. I had a smidgen of Lesbian Sweeps Weeks hope, but no all I got was a off camera bullet under the chin.

          • tereliz

            THIS. I mean, maybe Andrea knew that nothing she could say would make a difference, but she could have said SORRY. Not some lame excuse about how she just wanted everyone to be safe… BULLSHIT!

        • CT14

          You, too?

          I always know it’s a bad thing when I’m rewriting and re-plotting a show AS I’M WATCHING IT.

          You can be corny, or trite, or predictable and still be entertaining. Show, please learn that.

      • jeeplibby02

        Ah, yes! That perfect pedicure. Took me right out of a scene I didn’t want to be in, in the first place.

    • Sobaika

      It might turn into Lost next season – a main group that deals with all the real shit and nameless boring faces in the background.

      • tereliz

        As contrived as that may seem—and who knows, maybe the writers were trying so hard to keep this show unpredictable that’s why they’ve foregone traditional means of storytelling in which characters would actually learn something about each other when they interacted?—it would be an improvement over this last season.

        • CT14

          See, why couldn’t Woodbury have been useful for storytelling? Why couldn’t Milton have discovered that some zombies do retain some memories? Remember the zombies that went to church? Remember Morgan’s wife? Maybe some zombies could be evolving into something more than biters.

          But, no. Andrea didn’t even tell them what she learned at the CDC.

          • Allyson Wells

            What did Andrea learn at the CDC? I don’t remember.

          • Sobaika

            Remember when they showed the scan of a woman coming back to life as a zombie? According to the CDC guy, the parts of the brain responsible for memory never reactivate.

  • BigShamu

    My grade was a lot lower but that had a lot to do with the death of Andrea. I haven’t read the comics but everyone who has kept telling me that comic Andrea was a badass. Well tv Andrea may have been headed that way but the writers apparently can’t write their way out of a wet paperbag. Pile on top of that a section of WD fandom actively calling for her death, well I’m at the point of leaving it to the zombie gore fanboys.

    I did happen to catch the first few minutes of Talking Dead, and Minor Actress from the marginal tv show Community, you might want to dial back on your feelings of deciding when a fellow actress’s arc has run it’s course, and gee really, where can Andrea go? Bad form as a fellow working performer.

  • VermillionSky

    Also, does anybody else wish there had been a zombie Andrea behind that door instead of just bitten Andrea? I feel like we already got her dying words when she took a break to chat with Milton.

    • NoGovernmentName

      And then we wouldn’t have had to hear her talk that one last time!

    • UglyTalents

      Yes! That would’ve been awesome.

    • JuliaInBlack

      That is SO what I thought was going to happen. I was almost bouncing on the couch with anticipation, singing hosannas of praise for the writers, then… yeah.

    • Eric Stott

      I wish that when she raised her head we’d have seen that half her face was eaten away.

      • jeeplibby02

        I wish the writers would have saved the fate of Lori’s corpse for Andrea. Open door…bloated Milton…no Andrea. That would have been perfection!

    • jeeplibby02

      Yes! I was hoping that we wouldn’t see her again, alive or dead, after Milton was locked in with her, and we would be allowed to assume that zombie-nature took its course, just as the Governor described to Milton. Every minute she was on the screen was another minute I lived in dread that she would survive. It’s hard for me to invest in a character’s possible narrow escape when I want her dead so those scenes didn’t really work for me.

      • BigShamu

        We don’t get to know because these writers are horrible at both showing and telling.

        Since they don’t seem to feel constrained by the comic books (killing off Andrea, a major character in the book) and are free to kill off whom they wish I really hope they kill off Carl next. What a bust of a character.

  • hmariec19

    I seriously cannot fathom WHY they would move everyone out of Woodbury, with its running water, real, non-prison beds, and MASSIVE, TIRE-REINFORCED FENCE, to the prison, which has NONE OF THOSE THINGS.

    • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

      The only justification I can think of is they need more workers to effectively turn the prison into a farm.

      • MilaXX

        yeah but only half of them may be any good. They can but the kids to work, but those old folks ain’t gonna be much help.

        • BigShamu

          Maybe not much physical help but don’t discount the knowledge locked up inside their brains, knowledge of accomplishing things before technology integrated so much of our lives.

        • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

          Truth.

      • Eric Stott

        I just got a Prison Farm vibe, with trigger happy Carl as an overseer.

        • andreawey

          what we’ve got here is failure to communicate…….;)

    • NoGovernmentName

      Funny thing about both the prison and Woodbury– they seem secure, but the defenses never seem to quite keep the danger out, do they? What the two groups should do is focus on ONE location and making it as secure as possible, taking a page from Morgan’s book. Neither group has been able to maximize their resources or intelligence, but I would think a coalition of Rick, Daryl, Tyreese, Michonne, and Hershel should be able to come up with some real defensive and offensive strategies. Instead, they split the party, a classic blunder. Sigh.

    • cornpicker73

      I was wondering this, too. I could only think that they feared the Gov would return and wanted to get the hell out to regroup etc. Perhaps they’ll try to retake Woodbury later, since, yeah, it is a pretty sweet set up. Although, how to keep the zombie apocalypse horror story lines if they have a cute town to live in? I’m guessing the Gov will do something like torch it and then try to take the prison again.

    • UglyTalents

      And why would the prison want to bring a bunch of old people? Old people tend to do things like die quietly in their sleep … good night, Grandma. Good morning, Walker! Nothing about that made sense.

      • BigShamu

        Maybe they did a denture check on all the new Senior Citizens/AARP PreZombies

      • andreawey

        I was thinking that same thing! lol

    • erinbinek

      I couldn’t either, but then I watched The Talking Dead. Andrew Lincoln explained that it was because of Carl that Rick brought everyone back to the prison. He said that he felt he needed to bring a new sense of society back to Carl and that as a father, that was his way of doing it. Makes sense. Can you imagine Carl being willing to move to Woodbury. No way would that happen.

      • BigShamu

        Except, didn’t we just have a scene about Rick not making decisions for the whole group, that they would all agree about stuff like….oh bringing a bus load of folks to your hidey hole?

        • erinbinek

          Yep, good point. I honestly think that was a load of cr@p, especially since right after he said,”Let’s talk it out” he dropped the mike and walked out.

  • http://www.facebook.com/kaynwil Kay Watkins

    Yeah, I’m officially done with this show. Maybe I’ll check in on your reviews of season 4 but I refuse to add to the ratings of this crap. I said if the governor lives past this season I’m done so yeah, cancelling my series recordings.

  • NoGovernmentName

    Is it really too much to ask that the characters on this show act like actual human beings and not hand puppets who say and do whatever it takes to service the plot, no matter how contrary it is to sense, logic, or human nature? It’s a shame, because they are squandering a great cast and exciting premise. One wonders how such inane travesties as the Andrea plot get through the writers’ meetings. “I just didn’t want anyone to die!” Such patent retconning should embarrass them.

    Talking Dead last night was actually more enjoyable than Walking Dead. Yvette Nicole Brown was on, and she was shipping Rick/Michonne and Daryl/Carol. I wish the show would focus more on deepening the interpersonal relationships between the characters we CARE about, instead of these stupid, dragged out plot arcs. The best line of the night was “So is Daryl going to start seeing Merle walking around in a white dress now?” Made me LOL.

    • http://www.facebook.com/samantha.may.549 Samantha May

      Yvette needs to be a character on the show. Just playing herself. Every time a character says or does something stupid she can call them out on it in that awesome way. That group needs some sassiness.

  • dickylarue

    Watching Game Of Thrones come out of the gate with characters eviscerating one another, with setups from 2 seasons ago being paid off, new setups expertly created and actors saying one thing but meaning another I realized that Walking Dead is just junk TV. That’s what it is and that’s all it will ever be. The people in the room creating it might have lofty aspirations but they haven’t a clue how to execute them. If you approach it as junk TV like a lot of us approached the ABC reboot of V, it’s entertaining. But this is not a well made show and i’m past the point of hoping the new showrunner of the moment will get it on track. That’s like hoping the new drummer of Spinal Tap will turn them into Led Zeppelin.

    So we wasted a season on Andrea’s journey that led nowhere. And the two guys who got in the car with the Gov after he turned into a killing machine of his own went with him why exactly? Why set up Martinez in the moments with Daryl to portray he’s similar to our guys. If he were, he would’ve shot the Gov dead in that moment and stopped him from killing his own people.

    And Carl shooting an innocent? That’s our new arc next season? That a child coming of age in a zombie apocalypse who has killed his surrogate Dad/mentor Shane, put a bullet in his Mom, etc. might think shoot first and ask questions later is a good way to go through life? Struggling through Rick trying to humanize the killing machine of Carl next season sounds about as appetizing as eating shoe leather.

    I think if a lot of us, myself included, weren’t caught up in the hype of this show we wouldn’t be watching it.

    • BigShamu

      I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Makes me sad. So much interesting potential wasted.

    • MilaXX

      At least we got to see Lenny James again on GoT

      • Sobaika

        Are you talking about Salador (the pirate)? Because Lennie James doesn’t play him. Is he playing someone else?

        • MilaXX

          oh I thought that was Lenny

          • TropiCarla

            Hubby thought that too. We had to imdb it.

    • Zippypie

      TWD writers need to sit down and watch some well developed sci-fi/fantasy shows like GoT or BSG but at this point, three seasons in, I think they’ve lost it. After finally reading what happened with Darabont and why he was fired, I place the blame solely on AMC for interferring with the creative development of the show and gutting the budget as they did in Season 2. They didn’t let Darabont tell the story he wanted to tell and as a result, we’ve gotten a hodgepodge mess of poor plot devices and weak character development with a lot of zombies thrown at us to make us forget that there’s not much substance underneath. From what Darabont has said, he wanted to world build within the context of these characters, which is something that is sorely missing. A lost opportunity.

  • NoGovernmentName

    Another point that was brought up on Talking Dead: why would all those old people want to go to the prison instead of Woodbury? What if they die in their sleep? Will they be locked in? And where is the Governor now and why would Martinez not shoot him in the face? That is going to be one cracked out road trip.

    • MilaXX

      I thought that was pretty funny, but if I was Rick, I’d be locking those old folks in cells at night in case they died in their sleep.

      • NoGovernmentName

        You would totally have to, no? Otherwise, it would be an almost laughably horrible situation when it finally did happen. The infirmary would also have to be locked up a night. This is a compelling reason to choose to move everyone into the prison instead of Woodbury.

    • jeeplibby02

      Funny idea, but none of them looked as old and sickly as the folks at Guillermo’s nursing home, and I doubt they were locked up at night.

      • NoGovernmentName

        Maybe Guillermo isn’t aware that anyone who dies rises as a walker? He’s in for a rude shock one day…

  • Sobaika

    Carl is a psychopath. Gosh that kid is fucked.

    • NoGovernmentName

      I don’t think so at all. I think he is actually behaving totally rationally in an insane world. He gave a very reasoned answer for why he shot the other boy: every time he or his father has let someone go, that person has turned around and screwed the group over. Carl has learned that you can’t take any chances, and that mercy is a luxury in the post-zombie apocalypse world. Honestly, I thought his speech made Rick look like a naive asshole, trying to enforce an antiquated and frankly destructive morality on his son. Perhaps moral nuance would dictate that Carl should have tried to capture the kid, but Carl is only a kid and he did what he thought would keep his family safe. Not psychopathic at all. But hey, we can agree to disagree on that.

      • Sobaika

        That sounds a lot like Shane-logic. Or perhaps Lord of the Flies might be a more apt comparison considering Carl’s a kid.

        From killing his mom to shooting at Morgan to the boy in the finale, one of the subplots this season has been ‘watch Carl get more and more dead on the inside’ – he’s about as sane as Rick waving a gun at ghost Lori.

        • NoGovernmentName

          And the thing is, Shane was right about half the time. That’s why Shane was a much more compelling antagonist than the Governor. If Shane had been just a bit less unhinged and not in love with Lori, he might have made a better leader than Rick. The Lord of the Flies comparison is not apt. In LotF, those kids were completely irrational. Did you not find Carl’s rationale at all compelling? The bottom line was, in fact, the same as Shane’s– Rick has done a crap job of keeping them safe, and mercy has almost always been a mistake. Rick himself has not even practiced what he preached. He drove by that hitchhiker, guaranteeing not only his death but another walker, and Carl was in the car for all of that.

          Yes, Carl is getting dead on the inside. I don’t see how anyone in the show is not getting more and more dead on the inside. The abyss gazes also into you and all that. I just do not think the kid is a psychopath. I think he is navigating the moral conundrums, in the absence of a parent or leader who has a consistent moral vision that keeps people safe, the best he can. It looks like insanity because there IS NO SANITY in the world anymore. Poor Carl.

          • carina

            So I will come out and say that I dont find carl at all rational or compelling. He may be right that Rick gave mercy to the wrong ppl all the time but in the shooting scene all there was was a sad scared trigger happy little boy who does not know who to trust. that is not rational.

          • NoGovernmentName

            Well, he’s a kid. He has been under threat of horrible death for so long now, has had to kill people he loved, watch horrors unfolding all around him. His sense of threat must be off the charts. Of course he’s trigger happy. Of course he doesn’t know who to trust. And yet, both of those things ARE rational. Everyone around him is trigger happy– Andrea shot Daryl. Rick shot Shane. The Governor shot up the prison. No one is trusting– his father kicked perfectly good people out into the world. His father left a hitchhiker to die. His Uncle Shane was a bad guy. He knows about betrayal. I mean, none of Carl’s response to all this seems rational to you? What would be psycho behavior in our safe, comfortable world is actually highly adaptive, logical behavior in the world of the Walking Dead. I totally see Carl’s POV. It’s rational. It’s not GOOD. It’s terrible. It’s very sad for a child to feel he has to behave and live that way. I just don’t know that he is wrong in his thought process.

          • jeeplibby02

            Of course, it’s rational. “Rational” is not an absolute; it’s a subjective response to objective circumstances. Herschel’s belief that the walkers he kept in the barn were sick and might be cured was irrational, because there was no objective basis for his belief. In light of all that he has witnessed, Carl’s perception that an armed kid, who moments ago was engaged in a gun battle with Carl’s father and his friends, was untrustworthy is perfectly rational. Carl doesn’t know that the Governor riled up his people with lies, and convinced them that their own survival depended upon taking out the prison. Carl doesn’t know that the Governor forced guns into the hands of a bunch of frightened people, including a kid who doesn’t even understand that when two people have guns aimed at you, and one tells you to drop your own weapon, you don’t hesitate and respond with, “Here, take it,” and advance toward them; you release your grip, and put your hands up in surrender. Carl only knows that a stranger with a weapon equals danger, and dangers must be eliminated.

          • bella

            This is really bad writing – reason #800 why i am done with this show I think – that Shane and Carl are the most logical but have the most screws loose. Rick cant even reign in his boy if he tried.

          • NoGovernmentName

            Why is it bad writing? I mean, in a post zombie apocalypse world, or any apocalypse, morality as we know it would go right out the window. It would be warlords fighting over resources, every man for himself, whoever has the most weapons, biggest army, most resources would win. Being “sane” in the way that helps you function in the world we live in now would probably not serve to keep you alive in that world. That was Shane’s point, and it could have been the Governor’s too, but the writers opted to make them just dangerous, impulsive psychopaths instead. So yeah, bad writing, I agree, but not because Shane and Carl are right.

          • BigShamu

            So it’s your view, that in any apocalypse, morality is the first thing ejected from survival. That we immediately revert to animal status?

          • NoGovernmentName

            No, not at all. I am not talking about amorality, which is an “animal status.” I’m talking about a different morality due to the changes in the social structure. if you don’t think that the struggle for resources would cause a reversion to a tribal situation, wherein the morality that we value in our context would be very, very different, you are kidding yourself. It would be more like Game of Thrones, with a more feudal culture where the biggest, baddest warlord would be on top. And yes, some of those kings and warlords are psychopaths, it’s true. Some of them are just trying to survive, and being soft is very frequently not a survival trait.

          • BigShamu

            I just don’t buy that two years (unsure of the timeline here) after the zombiefication that the living that are left “adjust” their morality to what you describe. I know we are talking imaginary worlds here (and please, dragging in another imaginary fantasy/sci fi world to buttress your argument sways me not) but there would still be assholes and psychos (rick and the governor) and the healers and protectors (Hershel and Daryl) with everything in between.

          • NoGovernmentName

            OK, how about you look at world history, then? What happens to democracy when resources get scarce and people get desperate? Why are impoverished countries so much less likely to be run by enlightened, liberal societies than wealthier ones? It’s because democracy is a luxury. You think Rick and The Gov are assholes and psychos, but were they those things before the apocalypse? We are lead to believe that no, they were not. They were both just regular guys who were broken by the horrors of life and the demands of leadership. As for Hershel and Daryl: both were willing to go along with the Michonne plan, so much for their high mindedness. Daryl flat out told Merle, whatever Rick says goes. Not a whole lot of moral chutzpah there from either of those guys. They are good people who want their own group to survive, so they do things we would define as bad, but who are we to say what we would do if we were them?

            You don’t buy that in 2 years that humans would revert to tribalism in the face of the threats of the zombie hordes, the lack of food, medicine, and security? I don’t think it would take more than two months. People want security, they want someone who will protect and lead them, and if someone can do that, they will give that person power. It’s been true as long as human society has existed. Democracy and equality have come about when societies have become prosperous enough to contemplate such notions, and it’s the first thing to go when people get stressed and scared. This is not immortality. This is prioritizing survival over the higher, more noble virtues.

          • BigShamu

            I have no idea what the Governor was before but I sure as hell don’t believe that he was a regular guy and leadership turned him into a psycho. The way he was written I fully expect them to eventually reveal him to be some sort of secret serial killer. Hershel tried arguing with Rick the plan but Rick used Hershel’s weak point and it’s not like Hershel could stop him anyway and Daryl never thought it was a good idea.
            I think we’re just going to have to disagree about humans and their morality.

          • NoGovernmentName

            Except that Milton said that he knew Phillip from before and that is why he was so loyal to him, so it doesn’t sound like he was a horrible person before that. He loved his wife and kid, and held down a regular job. All of this is in the show, so there is no reason to have no idea what he was before. He was just a guy. He certainly wasn’t torturing people and gunning down large numbers of people. Hershel’s weak point is the weak point of ALL people– they want to keep their families safe. Consequently, they make choices to ensure their safety that hurt those who are not their family. This is totally natural and normal, and is the root of tribalism, fascism, and dictatorships– protect US against THEM. You started off accusing me of saying people would resort to an animal state. No. They would resort to a more primitive but very HUMAN state. How else do you explain why so many states, throughout history and now, are not democracies? Why, when states are under economic stress, or when their resources get scarce, they revert to authoritarian states? We can agree to disagree, but I think I do have the preponderance of evidence on my side. This is not to say that courageous individuals cannot make moral choices. Of course they can. It’s just easier to survive if you don’t, hence the central struggle of like every post apocalyptic or dystopian work ever.

          • BigShamu

            Knew Milton from before zombiefication or knew him before Woodbury? Two different things and not clearly explained in the show and the one piece of dialogue I remember between Milton and the Governor went something like, “We want to avoid what happened before Governor” suggesting something unsavory that went on before. So as much as you want to argue that the circumstances changed him I’m not buying it. Yes we saw a wife and child. It was not revealed how the wife died or how the daughter was infected. I KNOW you’re not naive enough to think that having a wife and child is evidence enough to prove the Governor was just a upstanding, regular guy before zombiefication. Ever hear of the BTK Killer? This is real life, not some comic book, not some tv show. He seemed like a normal guy, even to his wife and kids. If you don’t know who he is, google him and see how normal you think he was.

            If the writers had followed the logic of tribal survival and protecting their family from harm above all else then the natural solution would have been to leave the prison. You have a senior citizen with one leg. You have a newborn infant. You have a thirteen year old child. What, they had a total of 10 people? Versus a whole town with a small private army and superior arms? They are proficient enough at killing zombies that traveling and finding a new place would have worked. But sadly the writers pull out their deus ex machina card in the form of Morgan and his magic armory and give the fanboys the war they had been pimping all season long.

            I didn’t accuse you of anything. You said “…or any apocalypse, morality as we know it would go right out the window.” I asked you what that meant in terms of human beings with their morality being absent, out the window. Animals, as far as I can tell, do not have human morals. Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, rape is wrong. Now you tell me that in two months, that most humans will devolve into a more primitive state of human. That all former law, order and social construct, the very nature of freedom, will be wiped from their memory, especially American memories.

            You believe what you want but the fact that humans, despite all the earthquakes, famines, tsunamis, war and strife that have occurred over the span of thousands of years are still here with most of our morality, our humanity intact? You seem to want believe in the worst of man and the simplicity of only the strong survive where I believe it’s the most adaptive, clever and smart will survive in the zombie apocalypse. One last thing, if only the strong survive, what does that say of the strength of rabbits.

        • AnnieC

          The thing that’s getting overlooked is that Carl is a child. Everyone else has had thirty or forty years to form certain thought patterns and morals. He’s had, what, 8 or 9? He’s not functioning from an adult perspective where morals and beliefs become more cemented. As a parent, I look at the way my children think right now (they’re around his age) and things that are obvious to me aren’t always obvious to them. I do understand why he’s developing the way he is. IMO, his character makes more sense than many of the adults – particularly Andrea and the Governor’s henchmen.

          • Sobaika

            I understand how he is the way he is, but I don’t agree that he was right in shooting the guy from last night or that he’s not two steps away from seeing his own ghost mommy apparitions.

        • jeeplibby02

          Shane-logic wasn’t always a bad thing.

          • BigShamu

            Shane-logic didn’t really work out for Shane now did it?

          • jeeplibby02

            Actually, it did. It was Shane’s IL-logic (i.e., obsessing over another man’s wife to the degree that he tried to murder that man to have her for himself) that got him killed.

      • CT14

        Herschel and Carl told the other kid to put the gun down. He didn’t.

        Yeah, he was probably just scared and freaked out at his first venture into zombie land and warfare, and Herschel could tell that, but what Carl did is what a cop is likely to do: if you don’t follow instructions and drop the weapon, you’re going to get shot.

        Yeah, somebody needs to parent Carl, but they never have bothered to pay much attention to him–hence his getting”lost” all the time and leading zombies to camp or getting shot. Shooting someone who refuses to put down his weapon isn’t stupid in this world. Shooting to kill immediately isn’t stupid in a world where an injury can result in a zombie. Shooting the Gov, who you know tortured your people, who just gave you a completely unacceptable and unreliable “peace treaty”, would have been the absolute right thing to do. Shoot the Gov, Milton, and let Daryl decide what to do with Martinez, and then move everyone into Woodbury with its electricity, hot water,real beds, and gardens for food.

        Oh, there I go rewriting the show again….

    • SassieCassy

      for sure. there is no way you kill your father figure, mother, a bunch of zombies, and a teenage boy all before your bat mitzvah and turn out sane in the end

      • cornpicker73

        We thought Rick was going to at least give Carl a time out.

        • TropiCarla

          “a time out” … LOL!

          • cornpicker73

            right? ha ha. Also, bar mitzvah. ;)

    • http://twitter.com/lisledanielle Danielle Lisle

      I kept shouting “WHY IS HE STILL ARMED?!?” at my TV last night.

  • Angela_the_Librarian

    The first half of the episode was very good. There was a lot of great tension built up during the prison raid scenes and in Andrea’s fight to get free before Milton zombified. Once the governor fled from the prison the rest of the episode felt like a deflated balloon (that may have also been due to the constant commercials, ugh there were so many commercial breaks!). I too was perplexed about the reasons for Rick et. al. to go after the Governor in his highly fortified town and why the Woodbury people would go to the prison (Couldn’t they have just shot the Governor on sight once he returned?). I also think the writers did too much to damage Andrea’s character to make me feel too sad about her death (I also was dubious about the whole “I didn’t want anyone to die” line). If anything Andrea was striving for her own power and it would have been nice for her to own up to that a bit.

    I was really hoping that Rick’s group was going to leave the prison because I am so sick of that place. I just find the show more interesting when they’re on the road.

  • http://profiles.google.com/dorothymichael Dorothy & Michael n/a

    At least AMC has Mad Men to redeem it next weekend.

    • Eric Stott

      Even Mad Men has slipped just a little – though even at less than top form it’s better than this.

  • AnnieC

    To be fair, Rick can’t simply disarm Carl at this point. It would mean a sure death for the kid and would drag down the rest of the group. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And lest Rick get too high on his horse, remember that he whizzed by the person walking along the side of the road in “Closer”. He had to know that a person walking alone was sure to get eaten. That was some cold s$%t right there, and not all that different than Carl shooting an armed person.

    I was disappointed in the finale overall and found myself talking back to the tv at numerous points. If Andrea hadn’t died, I may have stopped watching in the fall. I seriously could not take another episode with her. Her character was so abominably written. And was she barefoot all along? I swear she started out with boots and socks on. How did she get those off? I was too disinterested to rewind and check.

    • BigShamu

      Funny that about her boots, Not laced up, loose so she could wiggle out of them. Just really bad writing.

      • tereliz

        That’s why I’m wearing pull-on boots during the ZA. ;)

    • NoGovernmentName

      Seriously, the problem with Rick now is that he has almost no moral high ground from which to preach to Carl about how to behave. It’s a completely morally compromised world. Carl most definitely has PTSD from everything he’s done and seen, but he also has a very strong rationale for all his actions. It’s a hard day for any parent when his child tells him that his morality is bullshit, but in this case, it’s much more dramatic and high stakes. I find myself sympathizing with Carl’s behavior and disgust for Rick’s hypocritical attempts and parenting. But then I have never liked Rick…

    • MilaXX

      She kicked the boots and socks off after she got the pliers in front of her.

      • AnnieC

        I don’t know about you, but if I were limber enough to take off boots AND socks without using my hands, I would have probably been much quicker to get those pliers. I wear heavy boots and socks to my barn every day. Just out of curiosity, I tried to take them off without using my hands. Let’s just say that if I were the character, I would now be a zombie and Milton would have been popping out of that door intact.

  • http://www.tumblr.com/tumblelog/lastbutnotleast janinedm

    I’ll defend the Governor writing this far: there’s two types of people we’re talking about when we talk about Woodbury. There’s the inner circle goon squad who, like Merle, have been doing so much messed up murdering for so long, that it makes sense that they’re react to the mass slaughter scenario that way. They don’t as questions when it’s time to do some killing. Then, there’s the outer circle of Woodbury folk who had the natural reaction (i.e. “WTF” and “we’re not going to do what you say anymore”). That made sense to me.

    As for Andrea, let’s not forget that Milton clung to life in presumably a lot of pain for her. His last words were “please hurry” and his last wish was that she prevent him from turning. But Terrible Andrea had to take frequent breaks from stretching her foot back, because that’s as tough as fighting off loss of consciousness after being knifed in the gut. I fought hating her character for so long…

  • http://gabyrippling.tumblr.com/ Gabriella M

    I feel weird, because while I thought Carl was cold, I was amazed by how SLOWLY the kid Carl found was “handing over” his gun. I kept expecting him to try to pull something at the last minute, so while I thought Carl shot him prematurely, I wasn’t surprised by Carl shooting him.
    Figured Milton was gonna die, but was kind of disappointed by it – the prison group could use someone else with a somewhat level head and medicinal expertise.
    Basically, everyone was so fucking SLOW in doing everything that it wasn’t so much that it was tense as it was me wondering if people had disordered reflexes and the inability to talk while doing anything else simultaneously.

  • Historiana

    Perhaps I’m forgetting a critical plot point, but if Milton had the power to stay alive for so long, wouldn’t have had the power to at least roll over to Andrea and hand her the pliers?

    • Eric Stott

      Possibly it would have been too painful to move, or else he had no strength. The walkers seem to have strength all out of proportion to their condition, and they show no evidence of feeling pain.

      • Historiana

        My point is, he was fighting off death for so long just to give her time to grab the pliers and free herself. Couldn’t have used that resolve and strength to give her the pliers himself?

    • jeeplibby02

      Good point! He survived a long time after all those belly stabs, didn’t he?

      • http://profiles.google.com/h.e.waddell Heather Waddell

        Granted, I “know” this from Hollywood, but stomach wounds take a lot longer to kill you while still indicating inevitable death without treatment. I’m pretty sure that the Governor did that on purpose to draw out the pain and fear for both of them.

    • Zippypie

      Or at least crawl/roll over where Andrea could head stomp him when he turned.

  • MilaXX

    This was a sci fi lover’s weekend so Walking Dead really needed to bring it in order to measure up. For me it didn’t. I heard about Milton’s death in an article announcing Dallas had signed onto a new series so there was no surprise there. Especially since Milton was the one to set fire to the walkers in the pit. Andrea remained an idiot to the end. Talking when she should have been taking action. I have to agree, her character was so messed up, I wasn’t the least bit upset at her death. In fact, I may have been rooting for the walkers, and I’m sorry but one little line about wanting everyone to live does not even begin to redeem this character.

    Carl needs his butt whupped. Zombie apocalypse or not the side eye he gave Rick bringing those people back to the prison was worthy of Rick taking that child across his knee. Speaking of which, why go back to the prison, the least secure place around? It would have been easier to take over Woodbury and defend that against the govnor’s return than a prison with more holes than swiss cheese.

    • NoGovernmentName

      So you think it was a GOOD idea to bring all those vulnerable people back to the prison? I was totally on Carl’s side with that one.

      • MilaXX

        no I don’t just that Carl needs his wig snatched a bit. Even if he’s right he needs to learn how to voice said dissent better.

        • NoGovernmentName

          Oh, you mean he needs some parenting? ;)

          • MilaXX

            touche

      • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

        I wasn’t. If there’s one lesson that should be learned from this confrontation with the Governor it’s that survivors are starting to form communities in this new world and the longer Rick’s group remains a tiny one, they’re going to remain extremely vulnerable to the whims of local madmen with megaphones and militias.

        Besides, we didn’t think Carl had a valid point. Sure, a lot of people they trusted had to be put down, but where would they be if they didn’t accept new people into the group? No Maggie, Herschel or Michonne, to start.

        • NoGovernmentName

          Remember at whose knee he got the idea that they don’t want new people in the group? Rick. He left the hitchhiker to die, he kicked out Tyreese and his sister, et al, highly useful allies… So isn’t Rick being a huge hypocrite, and isn’t it practically the job of teenagers to point out their parent’s hypocrisies?

          If the people from Woodbury were young and able bodied, able to help shore up defenses and farm, then it would have been a good idea. But why split the groups? If strength in numbers is the rationale? And why choose to bring in liabilities? Those older folks will need food, medicine, and care, when what the prison doesn’t have is nice amenities like Woodbury. I thought the choice was a bad one, in sum, and I agreed with Carl, not that xenophobia is the correct option, but that the way this decision panned out was bad.

          • http://www.tomandlorenzo.com/ Tom and Lorenzo

            Yes, Rick made horrible mistakes and could be called a hypocrite, but I still don’t think Carl’s in the right.

          • NoGovernmentName

            If the choice of new residents made any sense whatsoever, I would agree with you. They desperately need new people. But it seemed that it was mostly elderly folks, and what they really need is help with farming and rebuilding the defenses. I mean, maybe they are going to turn the prison into an infirmary, but as it stood, I was really scratching my head about who they were taking in and why. Perhaps Carl was just being knee-jerk xenophobic, but there are very good reasons to be skeptical about the new additions in terms of what they are going to contribute v. what they are going to need in the prison.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=768540908 Badriya Al-Badi’a

            Old doesn’t equal useless–Herschel is an old guy with only one leg, but they’d be a lot less well off without his medical knowledge. Older folks have experience to give. And plenty of them could probably still do light gardening, take over the laundry from Carol, etc.

          • NoGovernmentName

            Not useless, but farming without all the modern machinery is hard work, and I thought that was the plan. Rebuilding chain link fences, the tower, clearing walkers, etc… without hot water, without amenities, is going to be tough on older folks. It would be more logical IMO to have the people who need facilities the most to be in Woodbury, and the younger, hardier folks doing the hard stuff at the prison. But I realize I am asking for logic on the Walking Dead. Silly me.

          • NoGovernmentName

            So I guess my point is, there was a parenting moment to be had there, when Carl said, “Dad, you are a hypocrite! I am supposed to trust new people now? What about Tyreese and the hitchhiker? Why these people and not them?” and then Rick has to actually explain himself and talk to Carl. Another missed opportunity for character development among many.

        • editrixie

          I think that’s why I was so upset with the ep where they left the hitchhiker guy to get killed. It’s clear that they need people, more people, and there was little Carl with a gun, so they could easily have picked him up and kept watch on him if they weren’t trusting… That whole thing upset me so much, I have been emotionally done with this sexist, racist show for a while but that was beyond the pale.

          But I still can’t begin to understand why they’d stay at the prison if they could take over Woodbury, and when the Gov rolls up to the gate, they just hit him with the .50 cal. Bleh.

      • jeeplibby02

        Bringing the Woodbury survivors to the prison (instead of the other way around) was a more compelling visual representation of the fact that the Governor lost: his hold on what remained of his people was so completely broken that they were literally willing to follow his sworn enemy, Rick, anywhere. Although he’s still alive out there somewhere, he’s Jim Jones without Jonestown, which for a crazed megalomaniac, is probably worse than Jim Jones dead. However, symbolism aside, if Woodbury is easier to secure than the prison, then that’s where they should all be living next season.

        • NoGovernmentName

          Why those particular people, though, I wonder?

          • jeeplibby02

            Probably so Rick and Tyrese can bond, and Beth can get some help raising Judith.

    • tereliz

      “Speaking of which, why go back to the prison, the least secure place around? It would have been easier to take over Woodbury and defend that against the govnor’s return than a prison with more holes than swiss cheese.”

      I thought that at first, too, but the Governor knows Woodbury’s weak spots (or he ought to), and that back area where they kept the biters, the site of Merle’s last stand, seems to be just as easily breached as the admin wing of the prison. I would have taken whatever generators and other supplies I could find, too. But now that they have all these people in the prison, defending/repairing it needs to become priority number one.

    • bella

      Carl does need a good smack sometimes. As far back as season 2 and him wandering off the farm all the time

  • Inspector_Gidget

    The best thing I can say about Season 3, in retrospect, is that they introduced some good characters and also killed off the two most problematic characters. I give them props for not following the original storyline, but this finale felt a bit anticlimactic. The big showdown they’ve spent months building toward was over within the first 20 mins. or so, and the Governor skulks off to return again! I was actually kind of looking forward to a definitive resolution to this story so they could move on. I guess we’ll have another season of Prison vs. Governor, which I feel is already drawn out enough.

    • editrixie

      What’s really tragic or enraging, depending on your mood, is that the two most problematic characters they killed off were women.

  • H2olovngrl

    I have always thought the writing on this show to be pretty darn week. For me it has never been why would.d these people make such idiotic choices, but why would the writers write them this way. They are going to seriously lose their female audience if they can’t figure out how to write a female character. And let’s face it, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Practically since day one I have questioned why all their vehicles are so old. Good god, if this were the real world, everyone of them would be driving the best and most bad ass four wheel drive vehicles and motor homes. THAT was the first time I thought the writers had dropped the ball. Well, that and that stupid barbed wire camping, oh and the fact that everyone wears the same clothes damn near all the time. Fuck washing clothes in quarry. I’m going to The Gap.And I know, DANGER and all that, but I am guessing fresh clothes still wouldn’t be all that hard to come by in cars, homes, etc.

  • Qdahling

    I mostly disagree for once. I thought the episode had great tension. Yeah, Andrea should not have better pedicure in the zombie apocalypse than me and yes, she spent way too much time talking to Milton. But I did feel sadness for these characters. Andrea got close to Dale, and he fed her head with this “can’t we all just get along and be peaceful with zombies all around” business. Milton tried at the very end, but it was obviously too late. The Governor getting more and more psychotic as he realized he wasn’t in control and couldn’t bring his daughter back is so creepy.

    I think they came back to the prison to finish off the last of the crazy Governor crew, and then they can return to Woodbury once that is done. It makes sense to be at the place they know better. I’m not sure what they were thinking going after the Governor just them….and I’m wondering where the hell the Governor did go? Is there another hiding place he has to regroup at?

    As for Carl…I think he just wants to prove that he can hang with the adults around him. The same rules don’t apply in this new world. If someone hesitates handing his weapon over, who is to say they won’t shoot? This person came to the prison to kill them after all. Crazy episode all around. I wish they would get to the good parts a bit quicker.

  • Zippypie

    I’m surprised you gave it a “B”, given all the stupidity you so wisely listed. I’d give it a “C+” at most because the egregious out of character actions completely popped me out of the story and out of the world over and over.

    Why didn’t Martinez or the other guy just kill the Gov? Why get in a truck with a complete madman and ride off into the sunset? Martinez wasn’t painted as a psycho, just a follower, but c’mon. He just saw his fellow people blown away for no reason. The attempt to humanize him in the Arrow on the Doorpost episode just flew out the window. And letting the Governor go into the next season….jesus, what an incredibly bad decision. The story is done. Baked. Stick a fork in it. So none of the prison people died this episode. Now they can kill some of them in the season opener. Yippee. That’ll be a shocker.

    And what happened to Daryl locking the Gov and his people INSIDE the prison? That was in the preview and VANISHED in the show. Wouldn’t that have made more sense? Lock them in with the walkers and let the walkers take the down? Cover any possible escape route with gunfire? But no, let’s set off some nice haunted house smoke and let them all RUN OUT to have another day to come back and get us again. WTF.

    No, it made no sense for three people to go back to Woodbury to attack a fortified town. They had no idea they would find Karen. So they’d shoot their way in? How stupid!!! For all they knew, the Gov and his people had gone straight back to the PRISON to try again. HOW DUMB IS THAT????

    And Andrea. When she kept stopping and yapping and staring and stopping and it took poor gutted Milton to say, “um, look, idiot, you don’t have time to have tea with me, I’m going to eat you in about five minutes” to get her to move her ass (but she still had to stop every once in a while and listen because well, this is HORROR and that’s what stupid girls do in horror movies before they die), I didn’t care one bit she got chomped or died and certainly not because she wanted to “save” everyone. If she really wanted to “save” everyone, she would have gotten her head out of her ass weeks earlier when Michonne, who is more of a warrior than Andrea will ever be, told her the Gov was a sham and they needed to get out. She wasn’t about saving anyone but herself then and trying to force feed us that she’s some kind of self-sacrificing heroine is insulting. And not moving. I felt for Michonne, not for Andrea.

    And Carl. You know, I’m torn about what happened with Carl because despite of the horribleness of what he did, the kid was told to put his gun down and he not only didn’t, he kept walking towards Carl and Herschel. Yes, Carl should have said something like stop, put it down in two seconds or I shoot you and he didn’t, but the kid also didn’t listen to Carl and it was ambiguous. The shooting aside, what Carl said to Rick was the truth and in this world they’re living in, the truth is very ugly. And I loved that Carl was pissed that Rick brought all the people from Woodbury that need to be taken care of back to the prison. I do understand that, however. The Gov is out there and knows the ins and outs of Woodbury and for all we know, he has keys to everything. And he’s armed. He could retake Woodbury. It’s not safe. The prison, the high ground for Rick & Co., is safer for everyone.

    I’m not sure if I’ll continue to watch. They’ve taken a show that had SO much great potential and beaten it into a sketchy, superficial and lame cartoon. The comics have much more depth to them. It’s a pity.

    • jeeplibby02

      You explained beautifully all the reasons I neither loved nor hated this episode, as well as why I’m beginning to question my devotion to this show. At this point, I think I’m still watching because I like the idea of the show more than I like what is shown, and I want it to be better than it really is. Indeed, a pity.

      • andreawey

        I agree with both of you but I’ll probably continue to watch…….reminds of Lost……so annoying and frustrating but you couldn’t look away…….

  • http://www.snoskred.org/ Snoskred

    I watched a video on the Emmys website before season 3 part 2 which was called An evening with the walking dead.

    In that evening, Andrew Lincoln said that he thought Carol had the best line of the latter half of the season.

    I can’t actually recall Carol having many lines this season let alone the best line. I’ve been on the lookout for it, but maybe I missed it. Can anyone recall a line from Carol that could have been considered the best line?

    I might have to go back and watch that evening with the walking dead just to remember what else was said – I just wish he had said what the line was because I have a sneaking suspicion it never appeared in the show.

    I was disappointed that the governor did not meet his end. I was disappointed overall in the back half of this season especially after that excellent halfway season finale. I was disappointed at the overall boringness of what could have been great.

    I don’t think this is down to the actors – this is a writing thing. It was not great. They need better writers. With Breaking Bad ending soon, they ought to beg those people in that writing room to move to The Walking Dead.

    • YoungSally

      It might have been her comment to Merle when he said she was a lot tougher than he remembered. But for me it was the great look that she gave Axel when he told her that she was obviously a lesbian.

    • BookishBren

      I loved the exchange between Carol and Axel. But my favorite lines were between Carol and Merle.

      Merle: “You are a late bloomer.”
      Carol: “Maybe you are too.”

      I felt like that stuck with him and played a role in what he did to try to save Daryl and the others.

  • UglyTalents

    My son and I tried picking pliers up with our feet after the show: It’s not hard. Also, Woodbury’s nail salon has been doing a wonderful job on Andrea’s feet. … In her final moments, I was thinking, “Oh, wait. This is supposed to be sad?” I couldn’t wait for her to shoot herself, and why was Michonne crying?

    • YoungSally

      You would think that this far into the zombie apocalypse that only the ugly nail polish was left. Unless they were able to find nice French pink on a run.

  • cornpicker73

    I mostly liked it. Great tension building. I thought the scene where the Gov lost his shit was well done and believable. Like he just finally snapped– the way they did the sound layover, etc. I also kinda wish they’d closed the Gov storyline already but in a way, I like that we didn’t get that payoff yet. I thought Andrea’s death was well done in that it was unexpected. I thought it’d be another “oh, she got the pliers and drove them into Milton’s temple at the last possible second!” yet again. It WAS super annoying that she kept chit chatting with him instead of getting the fucking pliers already. I was also not sad to see her go, but was like ‘holy shit’ about the Gov massacre. I also thought they would surely abandon the prison and be on the road again. Where will the Gov pop up next? What will force them on? I’m into it enough to keep watching!

  • Amanda Morrissey

    I felt the SAME WAY about Andrea the entire time. WHY ARE YOU TALKING?!?! GET THE PLIERS!! Best part of the whole episode? Milton’s creepy-ass, “You need to hurry.”

    • Karyn

      I agree about “You need to hurry.” It made me reflect back to the episode where Shane reanimated, and how prior to that happening, you saw all sorts of zombie faces and gore – and I always believed that’s what you see before you turn/as you’re turning. It’s like he could feel it happening, which is also interesting because he was so convinced you retain portions of yourself after you turn.

  • Eric Stott

    And so the prison becomes a haven for mankind. Give me a break.

  • NoGovernmentName

    Just was talking to my BFF about this show and you know what it is missing? SEX. Think about it: those people are locked in a prison, little access to other humans. You have Beth, Carol, and Maggie, and a bunch of guys. No one tries to get with Beth or Carol, assuming they’d have respect for Glen and not mess with Maggie? That is just not realistic. Carl is coming of age, is he going to get a crush on Beth, as the only girl for miles and a cute blonde at that? I think sex would be a very big thing post-apocalypse, but we have nearly none of that. Seems like an egregious omission. Also another reason to join up with Woodbury…

    • BookishBren

      Axel was trying to get his groove on with Beth and Carol, once he found out she wasn’t a lesbian. (Still one of my favorite scenes). I think that will come into play more next year with new people added to the group (Tyreese, Sasha, Latina chick from Woodbury). Daryl and Carol have something simmering.

      • NoGovernmentName

        Beth, the hot blonde, gets zero attention. And no gay people seem to have survived the apocalypse. It’s weird.

    • PrunellaV

      The female characters have been written so badly, I cringe when I think of what this crew would do with sex scenes. Of course, we have had Glenn and Maggie. But I think that makes my point.

    • cornpicker73

      I can see how sex can take a back seat to food, shelter, and not getting chomped. Glen and Maggie seem to have healthy relations, though I worry about birth control. I also imagine that STDs in the apocalypse are OOC.

      • NoGovernmentName

        See, I would think that, when facing the end of the world, a lot of people would want to get it on. It’s the most natural drive, and people cooped up together might not be worried about consequences. I mean, babies were born in Auschwitz. I feel like the sexual politics would be highly charged and very relevant to power dynamics, plus fans are interested in that kind of stuff. It’s weird how short a shrift it is getting in the show. What little I read of the comics dealt with it much, much more.

        • cornpicker73

          Well, the kid they briefly held at Hershel’s, from the gang who came into the bar, basically said that group was a bunch of rapists and looters. Perhaps all of the “dude, let’s screw, it’s the end of the world!” folks are long zombified and mostly hard core survivalists are out there survivin’ and repressing their sex drives. Meh, whatever. I’m sure there’s lots of nooky going on.

    • inchoate

      There was an episode where Carl clearly had a crush on Beth. Can’t remember which one but it was early this season.

      • NoGovernmentName

        With Carl trying to go all alpha male on Rick, who knows where the character might go? How old is he supposed to be now? The actor looks about 13, and cannot pass for single digits anymore. I wish they would examine that sort of story line, coming of age in the post-apocalypse, but instead, it’ll probably be more pointless arguing and standing around next season.

  • Karyn

    The part about Andrea talking with Miltobomb is so true, and watching it play out made me SO ANGRY. I just kept screaming at my TV, “Um, HELLO? HE IS GOING TO TURN SOON. WHY ARE YOU TALKING?” I realize that it is “human nature” to want “closure,” and that Miltobomb sort of kind of had a little bit of a crush on Andrea for the last half of the season, but for GOD’S SAKE, the man is about to die, and is practically handing you a way out, and you are stupid enough to sit there and talk to him about it? I loved it when he was like, “you are going to find something sharp and you are going to stab me with it.” At least ONE of them was talking sense, AND IT WAS THE GUY LOSING BLOOD FLOW TO HIS BRAIN!!!

  • http://twitter.com/lisledanielle Danielle Lisle

    Amazing how perfectly manicured Andrea’s toenails were.

  • EEKstl

    Overall engrossing but some genuinely WTF?? moments that had my husband and me screaming at the TV (and we’re not “TV Screamers.”). Most of them have already been mentioned (Andrea dawdling, Rick +2 going back to Woodbury), but for me the #1 WTF was that The Govorner’s two surviving henchman did not put a bullet in his head after the massacre when they had the chance. And they had numerous chances. Instead they mutely get in a car with him? Ridiculous. I’m with Carl on this point – kill while you can or else it could come back to bite you (sometimes literally) in the ass…

    • BigShamu

      Apparently you watched the episode without turning off your common sense generator in regards to the henchmen. At this point the Governor and his Henchmen are as cartoonish as the old Batman tv series villains All the governor needs is an oversized, garishly colored suit and a walking stick and he’s good to go..

      • EEKstl

        Ah, you’re right! I KNEW there was something I was supposed to switch off before we hit “Play” on the DVR…

    • Zee Risek

      They are henchmen, they will follow him no matter what he does. Besides they’ve been with him when he killed innocent people before; remember those army guys that they massacred? The henchmen are not upstanding moral men, they’ve been established as bad guys that kill innocent people. So it is totally in keeping with their character that they would be shocked by the Governor’s actions, but stick with him.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1126307324 Mike Tilly

        But the problem I have with that whole thing was this – didn’t Martinez and the other guy have a single friend among the people the governor gunned down? Neither of them were “hooked up with” one of the girls? Neither of them had a drinking buddy there? I just find it beyond ridiculous that they sat there and watched him gun down their friends. And, fwiw, there’s no way THEY would be as shocked by his actions as the others would have been – because they’ve seen it… but they had never seen it against their own people – that should have been enough for them to put a bullet in his head.

  • Isabel

    I missed this part because I didn’t have closed captioning on.
    Why did Philip turn on Milton?

    • BookishBren

      He realized Milton had burned the walkers and that Milton had told Andrea about the torture room for Michonne. He felt Milton had betrayed him.

      • Isabel

        Thank you

        • BookishBren

          No problem! : )

  • BookishBren

    “But no, we come to find out, in an obvious bit of wallpapering over a character’s past inconsistencies, that Andrea just wanted to “save everyone.” Oh, please. Self-preservation ruled this character’s actions all season. It’s a shame that the writers screwed up yet another female character so badly that they were pretty much forced to kill her off, but don’t feed us this heroic bullshit after a season of watching her act like a total idiot.”

    Oh…my….god….THIS! Yes!!!! The “redeeming” or reinvention of the character of Andrea has annoyed the CRAP out of me. In all of the interviews the actress did and in the Paleyfest panel, she kept talking about how how Andrea just wanted to save “the people” and how much she cared about “the people.” What?! She was an absolute cow to Michonne at the prison “What have you said to them?!” as if Michonne had turned Team Prison against the Governor. It was just all ridiculous. Even when she knew what the Governor was, she didn’t kill him. I was so glad to see her character killed off. As annoying as Lori could be, I found her death way more touching because you felt like she had learned from her mistakes and you had seen it in the previous episodes of the season.

    I actually think they are playing Carl out pretty realistically. I couldn’t argue against anything he said to Rick last night. Admittedly, someone needs to remind him to respect his elders and that he is a kid, but when they have expected him to protect the group like the adults and deal with his mother’s death pretty much on his own, the kid sorta has the right to behave in a more adult manner. I loved what Andrew Lincoln said on Talking Dead about why Rick takes in the Woodbury group—he is trying to teach his son about humanity. Carl has lost that because Carl has only learned what he has been taught by those around him or watching others deal with situations.

    I am not sure why everyone was brought back to the prison instead of everyone going to Woodbury where they could get pedicures like Andrea’s. How is the prison still safe since the Governor took out the towers and the fences were destroyed. ??

    • NoGovernmentName

      Rick taught Carl not to trust anyone, and to use violence to solve problems, and then is horrified when Carl learns exactly what he was teaching him.

      • BookishBren

        Exactly. I think when Rick hears what Carl did, on top of the epiphany he has just had about the Ricktatorship, he realizes what is happening to Carl. I think the character of Carl has always gotten a lot of criticism, but look at what he is growing up in, what he has seen happen around him, and how most of the adults around him have responded. The kid is entitled to be screwed up. I don’t think he is a psychopath. Kids are sponges and Carl has just absorbed what he has seen. I think Rick has to teach him about humanity now.

        • NoGovernmentName

          Carl is now one of the few characters on the show who is written true to some approximation of how a real person would act. Teenagers are annoying and love to fly in the face of their parent’s morality, and Rick gives Carl just so much material to work with, not to mention the setting.

  • paintedfish

    Andrea must’ve worked at a nail salon pre-zombie cos that was the best pedi I’ve seen. Everyone is stanky and dirty, but her toes were perfect.

  • http://twitter.com/dianasof Diana

    I really wanted to get into the episode but that was difficult when I had to go “Wait, whaa? Why?” every five seconds.
    And please, can we just have some sort of zombie horde eat carl’s hat? Not even carl. Just his hat. I get that he does kind of deserve it now because he’s gone through a lot but i just want t smack it off his head and burn it.

  • http://twitter.com/WilsonChambers Wilson Chambers

    I was expecting another partly frustrating episode like so many this season and was utterly, pleasantly surprised.

    The prison sequence went straight back to the roots of zombie horror and why the antagonists momentarily became protagonists: it doesn’t matter who the living are when zombies attack. The rampage and mass-murder with the Steyr AUG made perfect sense if you’ve ever seen a psychopath with his blood up.

    Carl’s “wartime kill” was another perfectly executed scene. Was the kid really handing over his gun? His expression and his arm’s angle told me, at the time, that he was going to tilt a few inches to the left and pull the trigger. Then I heard Herschel condemn the act and the ambiguity was complete. No one can say for certain; instant moral quandary. I’m wondering where the writers’ talent was the rest of the season, it was so good.

    My only wish was that Milton had a slightly less typical sendoff. More time could have been spent with him as a zombie. Maybe his eyes would flick open; Andrea would squint, cock her head and then realize that he hadn’t awakened from another swoon. The zombie could have just sat there while Andrea pleaded with it, trying to find the living complement, recounting Milton’s original belief that something of the original remained. That would’ve been a big payoff. *Then* Milton’s zombie could unsteadily get to its feet and shamble toward the chair. Since Andrea had long been dropping undead with hipshots, her anguish would have been attacking what had been a fellow idealist — it wasn’t that Milton was a zombie, it was that Milton was dead.

    Oh, and I’d prefer we don’t see the governor for a whole season or two — and that the show explores more of the world, leaving the prison behind.

    But, yes. Wow.

  • http://www.facebook.com/samantha.may.549 Samantha May

    I think Andrea’s death was emotional, but that had more to do with Lori Holden, and the other actors in that scene (who all feel genuine emotion for each other). Later on, I realized that I wouldn’t miss her character. I believe she wanted to save everyone, but the writers fell short over season 3 in making that clear. They appear to have set up some great potential for character development in Season 4, so I am hoping against hope that they see that through. I also wouldn’t mind seeing the show return to it’s original premise either, and have the zombies be the most terrifying things possible. They need to work on the atmosphere.

    That being said, I don’t think the show is nearly as bad as some commenters have been saying. It does need some work though, and some refining.

  • Donald Hite

    Was I the only one who cheered when Carl gave Rick a big fat slice of reality pie about shooting the Woodbury guy? Yes, shooting a man who is (presumably) unarmed is “wrong”, but how many times have I sat screaming at the TV while characters on this show failed to act (almost always resulting in some sort of mayhem/death). I get that Herschel was “right” about this, but I kind of just want him to shut his holier-than-thou mouth (he’s becoming the new Dale).

    I thought that Andrea’s death was very emotional, largely because of Michonne’s reaction. Granted, we can only guess as to the actual extent of their relationship since the show never bothered to develop it, but just watching Michonne experience an emotion was more than I could have asked for.

  • BigShamu

    The numbers for season finale are in and they kicked ass. Not only that but the Cover the Writer’s Asses show, the Talking Dead beat the season premiere of Game of Thrones. That’s gotta hurt for the GOT folks.

    • Zippypie

      Not really. GoT had the highest rated premier its ever had, plus it airs in repeats and on demand constantly. Remember, it’s on pay cable. TWD is on general cable. There’s really no comparison with ratings. Or quality, for that matter.

      • BigShamu

        Bwhahahhahah. Don’t forget that the repeats and on demand also applies to Walking Dead. Hey I got no skin in this game. I don’t watch Game of Thrones except when I can get it from my library and frankly I don’t think Walking Dead deserves the audience it draws. All that being said, dude, TALKING Dead beat your premiere. There’s no way to spin that away.

        • Zippypie

          There’s no spin and it’s no big deal. Just pointing it out. I don’t know how many people pay for HBO but I’m sure it’s a hell of a lot less than people who pay for basic cable.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=768540908 Badriya Al-Badi’a

    I totally can buy Andrea’s wanting to save everybody as a part of her overall package of narcissism. It made her heroic but completely stupid at the same time, which kind of sums up the character.

    I also appreciated that finally, they gave her a gun and let her kill herself, as that’s what she was begging for through the first season..